I deleted this post because some how the discussion has become all about me. If we want to discuss my shit fine, let’s go for it. but this post was NEVER about “I am going to fix what is going on in NOLA.” It was about hey, it’s mighty fucked up that I am telling trans people offline to pat pat, don’t worry about it honey, I’ve got it all under control–and why the fuck should they trust me or anybody else talking about anything in private?
but since this has become a discussion about my post and whether or not it and I am fucked up–here it is. Let’s go to town.
The main points:
1. I never should have made this post, I had no right to.
2. I am extremely defensive, and that defensiveness has allowed me to make it all about me.
3. I am extremely defensive and that defensiveness has allowed me to make statements that are bigoted and transphobic.
I disagree strongly with the first point. My reasons why are listed in comments. Points two and three–holy fucking JESUS YES. I don’t know as if I could become any more defensive without cracking in half. And as such, I have 100% fallen into the trap of transphobia, saying horrible things and having a dismissive attitude because of that defensiveness. this is the one good thing, however, as I feel like in the future, people can point to this conversation and say, Look–THIS IS HOW DEFENSIVE POSTURING HAPPENS. I have not handled it in any conducive or meaningful way–I have done everything I have critisized other people for doing–and I think that it is SO good that it happened if only for that reason alone. Yes, guess what–I FUCK UP TOO and in a nice big gloriously ugly way online for the whole world to see. And no, i don’t feel happy about it, and no, I am not feeling like “i’ll get over it” and no i’m not feeling like “oh yay, I got to learn something today!” and yes, every last minute of this SUCKS ASS. But I will learn and I will get over my precious feelings and self.
And the one good thing here is that if I can do it, all the other people out there can to.
- Share
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:22 pm #
thank you
June 23rd, 2009 at 12:00 am #
Damn the blog ate my responce.
1) Wanted to say, thanks for speaking about this.
2) No clinic does everything but if they can treat Intersex women and refer them on for stuff they don’t cover, then there is no reason they can’t do the same for trans women.
June 23rd, 2009 at 3:49 am #
Even if it was about not having a doctor on site who can do prostate exams, are they saying there are none in all of NOLA? Because how difficult is it to pick up the phone and talk to a urologists office and tell them that you need their services, ask them to volunteer some time at the clinic, or if that’s not possible, let them know you want to refer patients to their office. You could also negotiate fees, maybe even get the doctor to agree to see your clinic’s referrals for free, or if there is a fee, set aside a fund to help pay those fees. I’m no genius, if I could think of this, why can’t they at the clinic and Incite!? Also you hit the nail on the head with the fact that trans women should be able to access many services already, why deny them a mammogram, for example?
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:29 am #
If you see the problem as being with “their mission statement” then your going to find a solution thats probably just as fucked up as the problem. The problem is with denying TWOC access to health care not with needing to create nicer language or cis women needing ot save face.
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:33 am #
When I go to the gyno they assume some dumb shit about me and end up just doing a *simpler* exam then the nurse preps for. It ain’t rocket science.
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:48 am #
-Perspective of someone who is white and trans female.
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:32 am #
Estrobutch, knowing BFP like I do, she most certainly isn’t saying that they need to find a way to better word things to hide their transphobia. She’s saying the mission statement is fucked because it’s unclear about how they are serving trans women. What does it mean to say that you serve trans women in one sentence and then to say that you don’t a paragraph or two later? It’s one thing to offer limited services and are working towards finding resources to offer the rest, and another thing to simply discriminate and offer nothing. It’s unclear from the mission statement which is true.
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:47 am #
what Donna said.
if NOWHC / Incite! can figure out how to make their decision-making process more transparent, that’d be great.
what would be even better is to just simply get past the discomfort and provide the services to trans women. even if the funding & resources are not there to deal with the urologist issue; handling mammograms, monitoring HRT, and dealing with general health concerns are no different for trans women than for cis women. nothing need change at NOWHC except cissexism.
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:06 am #
“Nothing need change at NOWHC except cissexism.”
Sigh.
I’m so disappointed at the discourse around this. Really concerned that folks blithely dismiss the healthcare conditions in New Orleans, as if it’s simple as breathing to find a doctor to come and do a thing for cheap or free.
Just as a review: the clinic began in the shadow of Hurricane Katrina. It’s important to sit with that for a minute. Okay, so how many of us have started grassroots feminist health clinics in a city that was under water the year before? None of us? Okay. So that means there’s a lot of information and experience that we don’t have. How many of us live in New Orleans and know the conditions of healthcare for poor people, trans/queer people, Black people, etc four years after the whole under water thing? Very few if any of us? Okay.
So, if you open a clinic in a context in which very few poor people have access to healthcare, you want to provide healthcare to *all* women but you spend years trying to find a Black woman doctor in abandoned New Orleans who can get with the feminist/queer-positive principles your clinic promote, you (laughing to keep from crying) don’t really have much money at all, and you know that you want the clinic to be a robustly queer space that works with all trans people, but you also know your resources and you know the lack of expertise of your medical team and you know that you want transwomen to have excellent medical care, what the fuck do you do?
And believe me, it’s not just transwomen you’re concerned about. It’s non-English speaking women. It’s women with some disabilities. It’s women who urgently need healthcare that you are busting your ass every day for hours upon fucking hours a day to figure out how you can squeeze water out of a stone (or however that goes) to make sure that sisters have what they need.
Yeah. The language on the friggin website (which hasn’t been updated in a while b/c, well, you know…) could have been better. Looks like it was an effort at being transparent about where they are struggling. Looks like a naked, vulnerable effort to say “frankly, we don’t have our shit together here, but we are really trying, and we will work with you to find awesome resources.”
To say that there is *nothing* going on here but cissexism or transphobia reveals an enormous amount of privilege. The privilege to be ignorant about the actual conditions in a place where you aren’t at and don’t know much about, the privilege to lack humility about what you don’t know and won’t imagine, the privilege to assume that you could do better because you’re awesome you and they’re stupid them and, after all, what’s so fucking hard about free, accessible feminist queer healthcare for poor people of color in post-Katrina New Orleans???
Look, I’m not saying there’s no room for critique. But this all feels a little armchair (laptop) intellectual to me. To be completely frank, it feels like folks are looking down (thinking “looking down” both geographically and from our high horses) on this little clinic in New Orleans run on a shoestring budget by working class Black women who clearly from their website have really tried to think through how to integrate trans/race analysis of gender in their project, really want to make sure that trans folks have excellent healthcare so found the resources to refer out, really want to be transparent and honest about where they are at with this so they were, and didn’t use the best language to communicate all of this.
So, sure, critique the language, or even critique the fact that they are not yet prepared to offer healthcare to all women (for reasons that we, as outsiders who really don’t know shit about healthcare conditions in New Orleans, don’t necessarily have access to at this point). Better yet, let’s make this transparent public conversation more productive rather than judgmental. Let’s really try to imagine what kind of position these folks are in, holding on to the realities that they face as well as our and their commitments to ending transphobia and other forms of oppression. Let’s brainstorm better language to help them out. Let’s talk about whether or not it’s okay to not start a project that’s prepared to offer services to some but not all women because of resources or other constraints, even while you are working your ass off to get those services off the ground and you say as much on your website. Let’s avoid assumptions, learn as much as we can, and reach out and ask what can we do *as allies* to support them to reach their stated goal: “to expand trans and gender non-conforming affirmative health care services.”
But I’m not feelin the easy casual dismissals, the superiority, and the lazy analysis.
(BFP: I hope it’s obvious that the frustration in this comment isn’t all directed at you, but at the original post/comments at QT and the comments above.)
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:06 am #
Bfp, I don’t think the issue is about the content of the online policy so much as the fact that it’s taking place in a context where trans women’s bodies are rendered as “freakish problems”, as not-women’s bodies, as not deserving of the health care offered to cis women, and this PUTS TRANS WOMEN’S LIVES AT RISK, SOMETIMES KILLING THEM. This isn’t updates and text and correct terms, it’s life and death. This isn’t about some kind of (cis women initiated) discourse, it’s about actions. Bigoted transmisogyny isn’t just mean or confusing, it’s potentially lethal.
Yours and Mai’a's responses are perplexing because you seem to be recasting the issue away from trans women’s needs for health care to focus on Incite’s needs to make clear statements and appear inclusive. On the needs of the organisation rather than human beings.
And I wonder to what extent have you practised transparency and accountability to trans women in coming up with solutions? In a context where trans women have been denied the chance to voice their needs for themselves, is it responsible for cis women to step in and determine solutions, especially when said cis women are invested in both cissexism and the organisation that is perpetuating it?
I also find it problematic that you’re declaring yourself outside the problem, and calling on Incite to be accountable to you (as a member of the ‘online community’), rather than opening yourself up to be held to account as an active member of Incite. I think it’s fair to say that you have a fairly massive conflict of interests here, and that you aren’t stepping back worries me. How can Incite! engage the twoc community if its members are constantly coming out and speaking for trans women of colour?
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:23 am #
wow. first, fire fly–I am NOT a member of Incite! I am a member of the AMC. I have organized with incite in the past, but I have not organized as a part of their community in about two years.
second, I disagree that this is as simple as “they hate trans women.” sorry. I agree with thatgirlhasissues that this is a lazy arm chair critique. It’s very easy to jump up and down and scream about “hate hate hate” it’s another thing altogether to say, you know what, there are accountability issues here–there are people that are admiting to something that is pretty fucked up. let’s see what the fuck is going on. Have any of you ever been to NOLA? The woman who made this orginial critique, Queen Emily–She is living there, she knows what the fuck is going on–she knows that 1. it’s not as easy as all this, and 2. that there is something fucked up about the fact that she is in one of the most vulnerable positions and can’t get health care.
should we then say–hey this policy was made on pure fucking evil hate, and fuck them let’s rip them to shreds because fuck them! or should we say, listen–they ARE servicing other women of color that desperatly need this shit (aka, women with no citizenship papers), they ARE deeply within the community, they HAVE made themselves accountable to the community before this and they will after this, um, maybe we should find a way to hold them accountable to deeply problematic shit?
Because that’s what organizing a new world is folks–I am the first to admit that I have completely written off entire organizations and entire groups of people–white women and mainstream feminism specifically. So if you all are at that point where you have to say, listen this is nothing but fucked up continuance over everything that has ever happened to trans people–then I say GO FOR IT–you are right and I make NO qualms about admitting you are right and I sit no judgement and I embrace your right to say FUCK INCITE!. But I personally see that this particular clinic is invested in the community such that it is WORTH me taking time out of my fucking life to say, listen–there’s something going on here, and we need to fix it.
Also. a little about how incite! works–they all exist as independent groups of each other. They are organized under a loose blanket of “incite!” but national incite! holds no control or power over smaller orgs. so even if I were a part of incite! right now, as somebody who would be a part of Incite! here in Michigan, I would hold no power or say over what happens in NOLA. But I do have a blog and I do have connections with people who are still with Incite! and thus I do have the power to say, listen, there’s some fucked up shit going on. what the fuck is going on.
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:36 am #
to all who seem to think that this is about finding nicer language. I am sorry, but this is really disappointing to me. Maybe, just maybe this is coming from a perspective of ” being from the immigrant community I know that there are NO other health care providers that will work with women with no papers and as such I want to know what the fuck is going on before I completely write off and org that is one of the only ones working with people in my community because the people within MY community don’t have the luxury of just walking away they have to try first.” because oh, hey trans immigrant women exist, and if pressuring existing resources to service them isn’t an option, where the fuck are they going to go, the local hospital? Oh, wait, that’s shut down. and oh, wait, it’s the law that any public health care work has to report them to immigration or face jail–so um, there’s no place to go.
I am not asking anybody here to do what I am doing. I have not asked ANY trans person to work with me OR with incite!. I have asked incite! to be more transparent so that people who are looking for resources (queen emily) knows what the fuck is going on. And so that *I* personally, Nobody else, can work with them in regards to their policy if, indeed, their policy is “we serve no trans people.” If they serve no trans people, that is unacceptable to ME, and *I* will be dealing with it accordingly. But a *dialogue* begins by me asking for them to be more transparent so that we have the full scope of what is going on. A*committed* dialogue insists on the full scope of what is going on, because *I* personally am committed to change. SO I personally am committed to changing the policy if that’s what the policy is. I personally am in this for the long hall. Because it is unacceptable to me that a woman that I love can be living in a community and not get health services. If others are not in it for the long hall, that is FINE. I am not asking for trans people to fix this. I am looking at myself and at the incite! community to fix this.
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:59 am #
Bfp I think you’re completely misrepresenting others’ words, and I’m quite shocked by that.
I never used the word “hate,” but others have, and given that many of them are trans women, I’d rather follow their analysis. And it’s not just about attributing motives to the organisers, but about systemic cissexism and the overt complicity of NOWHC in it. You’ve admitted that it’s about gender policing — how is that not ‘hateful’ in some sense? How is denying someone health care based on their gender performance NOT hateful and transmisogynistic?
So far the trans women who have responded to your call for public accountability have been critical of your suggested methodology and this blog as a site for going through that process. Telling off the women who are backing up trans women in this just diverts from the purpose.
You know very well my circumstances and the fact that I’ve never set foot on American soil, but that’s neither here nor there. I made it clear that I was talking about what is happening in blogs rather than what’s happening on the ground. Criticising that is just basically diverting from the point: who are appropriate people to initiate processes of accountability to trans women of colour, and how to ensure that twoc are centred.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:11 am #
and firefly. yes, i have a massive conflict of interest here, which I admitted openly and honestly in the post. But 1. do you REALLY think I’m speaking for trans women in calling for more openness? Honestly? Or could it possibly be that I was asking for all those dark hidden conversations to be pulled out into the open so that trans women COULD participate if they wanted to because they have the fucking right to?
And secondly–do you *really* think I am coming up with solutions? *really*? by saying, no, conversations can’t happen in the dark, they have to be out in the open where people can be a part of coming up with solutions–you *really* think that I’m saying–hey, this is what I decided will fix everything?
I am first and foremost interested in making this a transparent conversation. If others don’t want to participate in the conversation because fuck this shit, they’re sick and tired of having to fight cis women, I am not going to even *try* to convince anybody to come to the table. It is not my place and I am not going to even try to say “oh, but we’re not like *them*” when I don’t know. maybe we are.
But I am also not going to just sit by and pretend like everything is ok either. I have refered women to this clinic. I am not going to continue to do so if they are not servicing ALL women of color. But at the same time, I know women NEED this service, and I am not going to just write it off either. I am not asking for any other person or organization anywhere to change incite!. I am asking for incite! to change incite!. And as somebody who is connected to that community, I am asking to have the conversations that ARE happening in a public space so that there can be accountability.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:16 am #
Fire fly. I disagree with you. I think you’re ciritques are wrong, I think you are reading me the wrong way as if I have NO history here at all. After all this time you ReALLy think that I am making a call for more civilized language?
I disagree.
and now, because I am very angry, I am going to step away from the computer until I am in a better place, less defensive and more able to figure this thread out.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:17 am #
Firefly, I disagree that debate about the mission statement isn’t important, because what is needed is clear straightforward language in the online document. When Em went looking what she should have found is something that said that if she needs her blood pressure checked, come on in; if she needs a mammogram, we’re here for you; if you need a physical, we will do it…and if there is some service you need that we don’t do on site, we will find a way to get that service for you. So if we are talking about how do we make that happen, then it’s to the good. If we are only discussing how, golly, this makes progressive organizations and cis women look bad, then fuck that noise.
I’m really uncomfortable with the argument that we need to be supportive because they do good work for some women. Yes, I know these women really need health care, and I’m not denying that. Think of it this way, white women need health care too, what if you went to your doctor and he said he only gives mammograms to white women, and if you get breast cancer, oh wellllll. And you got mad and he says to you, what’s the matter with you? You should be supportive! I do good work for some women. Can’t you be happy for the white women getting necessary medical care?
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:18 am #
And. I will say, FF, you are absolutly right about my use of the word “hate” and how completely blithe and ignorant it was of me to write that off.
As such, I want to apologize to the people who have used the word here and my defensive posturing. i was wrong to let my anger get in the way of a legitimate critique. And I clearly did. And I am very sorry.
Now. I am away from the computer.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:25 am #
I don’t think parallels between race and gender identity work, but I’m open to having a conversation about whether a clinic should open if it’s not prepared to serve everyone it hopes to.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:27 am #
Donna, that’s not what I am saying. I am NOT saying oh, but they do good work with some women yayyyyyyy for them! I am saying that they are COMMITTED to the community–and even those who are committed to the community fuck shit up out of ignorance or hate. but the *committment* counts for something TO ME, that means that there are ways to pressure and hold accountable. To draw on your thing of white women–there is no way for me or any other woman of color to hold them accountable. SO why bother working with them? i think there are ways to hold Incite! nola accountable. And I *want* to hold them accountable. because they service women of color that desperatly need that service. It’s all intertwined, right?
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:30 am #
For me, the issue isn’t about nicer language, it’s about three things:
1) an analysis
2) a practice
3) effectively communicating the analysis and practice
If you read their website, you can see that they are not just doing “trans” as an add on. They seem to be genuinely trying to figure out how to integrate a robust kind of gender justice analysis into their vision of what they want to do. The intent of the analysis seems to not be a add and stir, but an integration. We can debate whether or not the analysis is a good one, but my point is that it’s not a “We’ll just hire a translator!” move, it’s more intentional than that.
I think everyone, *including the folks at nowhc*, agrees that the practice doesn’t meet the vision of the analysis. I am not saying that there is no transphobia there, I think there is transphobia everywhere. But I am saying that they seem to be working on it in good faith. For some reason, they don’t feel confidant that they can support this particular set of women. So, it sounds like they found a resource that they trust that can. It sounds like they want to make sure that transwomen have excellent healthcare, but they couldn’t make it happen, so they found folks that can. Is that the ideal solution? No. Does that mean they don’t give a fuck about transwomen’s lives and health care? Since they say they are working to “to expand trans and gender non-conforming affirmative health care services,” I’m gonna go with No.
Then there’s the last thing about effectively communicating the analysis and practice. This is not just about “nicer language” to make everyone feel better, but about being articulate and transparent about what you think, what you are doing, including what you are not doing well, and what’s your plan. I believe that they have demonstrated some transparency already. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, so props to them about being honest about where they’re at. I think the language about “we can’t work with these women” is problematic, absolutely. So, it would be great if they could clarify this language and explain why.
I hear you, bfp, about more transparency about additional things like background conversations, process leading up to this point, etc. Okay, I agree to a point. But I do wonder how to practically implement this. Are you suggesting that all of our grassroots woc orgs working on shoestrings have, in hand, explanations of all of their processes (discussions they’ve had, fuck ups they did, people they’ve reached out to, etc) so that they can put this up on blogs, etc? I’m open to thinking that through, and perhaps this case is a special case so it would be great if folks did this here especially, but I can imagine that this takes enormous amounts of resources (and there would be some questions about confidentiality, etc).
What do we know? We know that the site hasn’t been updated since last December. We know that the world is in some kind of financial clusterfuck. We know that things are particularly hard in New Orleans. We know we want to see the clinic offer health care to all women and we know that’s not an easy task. We don’t know how the clinic is doing. For all we know, they aren’t surviving the financial clusterfuck at all. We don’t know if they have been and will be slow to communicate because they are dealing with some tragedy within their community right now, with exhaustion, with depression, with PTSD etc. We don’t know this in part b/c they haven’t been able to communicate this to folks (no resources/time) and we don’t know b/c folks who are first to criticize are often last to call and ask.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:48 am #
Bfp, let’s just say that I’m not seeing how trans women of colour are centred in the process you’ve called for. A number of women who’ve commented — at QT and Raven’s Eye — have suggested that they take on talking to people within Incite! because they know people on the inside, but obviously there’s been a breakdown of trust between cis woc and trans woc over this. Public transparency about how a policy was arrived at isn’t necessarily what trans women are calling for either, and I doubt that, because of that trust breakdown, twoc want to engage in a cis woc blog discussion about the NOWHC policy.
Shouldn’t trans woc be centred in the delivery of health care to trans woc? The exact wording of the policy throws up huge questions and gaps (e.g. are trans woc being treated at NOWHC at all, and if so are their identities policed for conformity to an ideal?) which mean that real effective health care delivery will require more than cis woc having “conversations”. I’m not seeing how a blog conversation here about a policy is going to achieve that, and I don’t see that trans woc are calling for it either (and I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that anyone has suggested boycotting NOWHC?). So you taking on the task of solving this… I’m not seeing how that is accountable to twoc, and so I wonder if it’s appropriate.
This discussion is happening in many places, but it’s moved on at Raven’s Eye. But over there people are starting to get that conversations need to be had on trans women’s terms. Not that there’s much space to talk about what those terms are.
Bfp, I think you’re awesome, but being awesome doesn’t mean your actions are free from cis privilege or defending cis privilege. Mine aren’t either, but we cis women have to hold each other accountable, I think.
June 23rd, 2009 at 10:57 am #
I was formulating a response, until I saw the last set of responses, and wow. I don’t even know what to say. What’s really fucking sad is that I wasn’t even wondering if, but rather when this mess was all gonna come out.
(Before I get any further, I want to say that I’m speaking from an ally position, as a trans black third-gendered/genderqueer who was female-assigned. I don’t have to question whether or not I’ll be kicked out of women’s spaces, I know I won’t be.)
It’s some fucked up shit, that trans women expressing their frustration with trans misogyny and the systemic exclusion of trans women from women’s space is called lazy analysis. It’s some fucked up shit, that trans women/trans female spectrum genderqueers are constantly fucked over by cis women, yes, even wonderful, radical, intersectionality-concerned, womyn-centered cis women, and their distrust of cis people of getting shit right is considered armchair analysis, when so many trans women/trans female genderqueers, espeically of color, have paid the price of trusting, with their blood.
And it’s fucked up to hear this in a space full of people who have felt free to distrust white people’s attempts at inclusion, be angry at institutional racism and sexism that inform clumsy attempts (regardless of their words and intentions and struggles), and be frustrated with the constant bullshit in their life. I’m not dismissing it, because I think it’s valid, and I think trans women/trans female genderqueers should be able to be pissed as fuck about trans misogyny too, without this kind of disrespect.
If NOWHC wanted to deal with trans misogyny in a serious way, they would have first made it clear that trans women/trans female genderqueers are welcome. All that “benefit of the doubt” crap means nothing in the face of the fact that trans women get excluded from women’s spaces by default.. Meaning they can’t half-ass their policy or their statements if they are truly concerned and aware of this crisis. If they can’t afford to have a urologist, they should make sure trans women knew they can be served in every way, except for this one part and that while they’ll be currently giving referrals for this one part, they have a plan to ensure that eventually trans women will be able to get the same amount of service as cis women do in-house.
Does it cost more to say explicitly that trans women will be served with almost all the same services* (except a few)? Does it cost more for a trans woman to get blood tests than a cis woman? Is genuine acceptance that expensive?
Now look, we got hetero, bi, lesbian, queer and questioning women and women with intersex conditions (DSDs) being served but how do we know they exclude trans women? They are named as trans people who were male assigned at birth. My experience is extremely limited, but even I already know there’s trouble coming when cis people talk about “the transgenders” or “the transsexuals” (which is basically what this language is), that no matter how well-meaning they say they are.
*This applies only in the best possible scenario of the what their site is trying to say, that they do serve trans women, except for those services that require a specialist, for which they’ll give a referral. In which case, they still have to adjust their page and make sure folks know that this is the case. I’m still young and naive, so I’ll keep in mind that this is a possibility. However, if they’re not treating trans women at all then there is no explanation or excuse that can wave away that level of blatant trans misogyny, and yes, perpetuating hatred against trans women, especially trans women of color.
So I’m waiting to hear what the case actually is. And the fact that I can have some reservation about what is going is a privilege, others have been shut down too many times (and watched others get shut down too many times) to assume that cis people are that trustworthy about trans/trans women’s issues.
June 23rd, 2009 at 11:49 am #
Ok. I have sat with the defensiveness thing. And first before I come into the conversation again, I want to say–again. I am invested in Incite!–and I DO get defensive when dealing with critiques about them. And I recognize that my defensiveness is so not the point. Which is why I stepped out of the convo.
And having said that–Again, I want to apologize for anything that I said–In particular the casual dismissive way I interpretted the use of the word “hate”–I admit I was angry, and because of that, I didn’t take the time to really digest what was being said. So I am sorry. Deeply.
Secondly. I’ve spent a lot of time working around community. And “community building” etc. And it really hurt and made me very angry that people are honestly saying that i am calling for more civilized language rather than actual change. A community would know that I have never in my fucking life, much less on this or any blog I’ve ever been a part of, called for more civilized language. I think that if four years of blogging isn’t enough to convince people that when I post calling for more transparency–I MEAN I WANT MORE TRANSPARENCY–then I don’t really know what the fuck I’m doing here.
Regarding the call for more transparency. I wrote this because I know that there are private conversations happening about this issue. I have been a part of them. But Queen Emily’s critique was not about the private conversations, they were about a very public document that was published online. So why are the conversations about a public critique made about a public document being made in private?
Frankly I think this is full of shit. I was not talking to or for trans women. I don’t even want to fucking GO there because I KNOW what bullshit it is to be told “come to the table and talk to us, we aren’t going to hurt you we swear it.” I was talking to INCITE! women. Point blank full stop. And the reason I was doing it was not because I want to “take it on myself” to fix this (by “this” situation, I am assuming you are talking about the fact that they don’t serve or have problems serving trans women) situation. In other words–I was looking to fix “this” situation which was the privacy and secrecy that comes when I tell a friend not worry, I got it. And I wanted to fix “this” situation being queen emily’s post *that was specifically made because she is looking for services and was looking ONLINE* and everybody was talking offline, and I wanted to “fix” the situation of me personally have referred women to this organization ON MY BLOG.
*I* have a stake in this–and that stake is NOT I may lose some personal friends–but that I have been referring people to INCITE and to the nola clinic for YEARS–ON MY BLOG. Have I just referred a bunch of women through this blog’s endorsement and through personal involvement to an org that is going to hurt/violate them? Yes, I take that shit seriously, hence the post about acupuncture that was made *immediatly* after I had that bad experience. Have I just referred a whole butt load of people to acupuncture clinics that are going to violate them and treat them like shit? I have a fucking responsibility to acknowledge the problems of things I keep referencing and endorsing.
Also, why in the hell should I be emailing friends telling them “don’t worry, we’re talking about this behind closed doors, it’s all ok”—why the hell should they trust me on that? Because I say so? Can anybody really be held accountable to a community THAT NEEDS AND ACCESSES THE SERVICES THROUGH THE ONLINE WORLD by talking about everything in private? Should I sit by and continue to email friends to “not worry” even as I know that something is happening in a different space because of a critique that those friends created?
Whatever happens to the clinic itself with regards to how they service trans women–THAT is nothing I have any right in talking about. As many trans women have clearly stated, they lead the way in that–and it is something that i specifically STATED in the post. But–*I* have a responsibility to people reading this blog and that I interact with online and to myself to 1. recognize that there is something deeply fucked up and power laden and *transphobic* about amazing woc avenger telling her sweet little trans friends not to worry, i’ve got it all figured out, while those friends have no access to what the fuck it is I am talking about or have any control in how things are decided and 2. make sure that when I endorse something, I am being fully transparent about who and what I am endorsing.
I don’t think that 2 is as important as 1. and I didn’t want to make this an oprah moment where I go off teh deep end saying–omg, MY GOOD NAME HAS BEEN SULLIED BY THIS SHIT!!!! as such, I focused on what I felt was the more important issue–the fucked up dynamics that goes with me telling a friend not to worry.
In doing that–have I completely missed the whole fucking point and made it all about myself myself myself any damn way? Clearly, the answer is yes. because incite! women are not talking here, and the stuff being talked about is me. So–long logic short–what I posted was ultimately a failure even if it was done because of a commitment friends and to myself.
And having said that–I will continue to read and study this thread and my post and my relationships with my friends and Incite! and I will be studying it through the critiques offered here. Thank you to those who have taken the time, and this absolutely means you Fire Fly, to offer your thoughts. I have not reacted well but I never do in the heat of the moment. None of you needed to take time out of your day to respond to me–and I appreciate that you did, when you could’ve been doing something way more fucking important.
I am not asking to be called awesome and I never have. And frankly, i am sick of people saying that.
June 23rd, 2009 at 11:55 am #
@thatgirlhasissues
I’m not really sure what your point is.
Cos this >>> “Since they say they are working to “to expand trans and gender non-conforming affirmative health care services,” I’m gonna go with No.”
is just wrong. They don’t need to *expand* their services for trans women specific needs (though it’d be nice of course), all they need to do is admit that trans women already need their *current* services. We DON’T take up more resources, and we have as much right to what resources there are as any other woman.
Why does this coming up? It’s not rocket science.
June 23rd, 2009 at 12:11 pm #
I think you’re right. Thank you. and in case I haven’t made it clear, I am very sorry for my defensive posturing that did nothing more than belittle very real fucking words. I am sorry.
June 23rd, 2009 at 12:22 pm #
and one last thing about previous post: I forgot to mention that I also have a responsibility to the women of incite! which *other people don’t*–and I *recognize* that other people don’t. And yes, I was trying to be accountable to all three responsibilities–my offline friends, my online world and the incite! women.
which is making my head vomit trying to figure out how to do all three.
June 23rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm #
AND-for full transparency on my part. In my eagerness to not be transphobic with my offline friends, I have, in the end, been transphobic. I am not going to continue to bring my offline world into my online shit–because I think that is half the problem. people think i am trying to “fix” the clinic–when I am trying to “fix” the fucked up shit that I did w/ a friend. So I am bring two worlds together that probably should have stayed apart.
but I want to acknowledge that, 1. I fucked up offline. 2. I fucked up offline again. 3. in an effort to fix a fuck up offline, i got defensive and hostile online–which led me to fuck up again. So. there’s three big fat fuck ups for me.
In acknowledging that I fucked up–I want to say to the offline world that I know is reading along, and the online world–I am deeply sorry. In regards to 1 and 2. I am talking about it offline. in regards to three–I am thinking–i shouldn’t have posted anything at all unless i knew I could it and not be defensive–because in being defensive this whole thing has been turned into me me me me me.
June 23rd, 2009 at 12:43 pm #
very very very important point.
June 23rd, 2009 at 1:02 pm #
and finally–the fully non defensive non hostile me want to know about the dynamics of this conversation:
1. woc with cis privilege saying “arm chair analysis”
2. White trans women saying I don’t care about any of the “explanations” this is just wrong.
3. the overriding bigger analysis/comparison of “white women using their privilege to deny trans women services” and “white women using their privilege to deny woc services”
So, what I am seeing here–1. cis privilege on my part. 2. white privielge on part of trans women. 3. an usefulness analysis of power in that it doesn’t fit the position of power that ANY of the players here are in but is always hanging over the relationship because it is not just history, it is happening right now as we speak.
None of us wants to be that dreaded white woman that has denied both trans women of all colors AND women of color their existance and much needed services. and I don’t think any of us are, because we’re not any of us that white woman with cis privilege. But how do we acknowledge the fact that when woc say “we don’t have the resources” they just might be telling the truth–because they are NOT white women?
And I am asking this question as a question that exists SEPERATLY of the issue of the clinic (maybe I need to start a new thread?)–because to me, that is another aspect that has gotten me hugely defesive. i’ve worked with the women in NOLA–and I know where they came from when the clinic originally opened, I know how fucked up it was, I know that physical safty as with resources are STILL an issue–and I get mighty backed into a corner when a person with white privilege says “oh, fuck that shit, they need to just do it”–because it assumes SO fucking much.
BUT–I also want to acknowledge–players like ME, who get defensive, are going to fall back on easy arguments–like, hate hate hate, is that all u can do? And what that does is play out as transphobic shit.
So how the fuck does all this power get negotiated?
I don’t know. Clearly, as exemplified by the above thread–I have not a damn clue.
June 23rd, 2009 at 1:43 pm #
and one last thing, because it was pointed out to me.
in the above comment about power, the space that I am operating from is this. the AMC started off as a white dominated male dominated cis dominated able bodied dominated space. but then new “leaders’ stepped into the amc–and they said, this is bullshit. We have to change. but *practically* resources weren’t there to change all in one year. So they did a slow shift over such that the first year more people of color were there. Then resources started getting pooled so that mothers of color would be there, etc etc. So–racism and sexism and exlusion and privlege FORMED the base of that organization–and it took time to shift it over. It took time to gather resources such that, for example, child care could be provided free of charge.
So, what i am saying here is 1. “resoures” can and is used against trans women by cis women to deny them privleges. 2. when organizations are built on transphobic polices, “resources” are never going to be there for trans women. 3. when there is a commitment to *change* that shit, it takes time to gather the resources to change it.
Ok–but for women of color, it’s going to be HUGELY more difficult to gather those resources to change the base of transphobia that they built whatever on. For example, it’s not going to be as easy to get grants from funders (as an example incite! had their major funder withdraw all it’s funding for it’s position on israel). So–how do we negotiate the fact that for women of color, it’s just not *practically* as easy to shift things over as it is for white folks? And how can we hold cis wome of color accountable to the transphobia that *created* the lack of resources to begin with–while at the same time acknowledging that just not as easy as saying “fix it”?
And I want to emphasize again, that this is a more general question about power and how to understand and negotiate it–because in the case of the NOLA clinic–as it has been pointed out repeatedly–trans women require very little different services–there are already services that exist that they can use (hiv counseling) etc. so what I’m speaking about with THIS question is not the issue in regards to the NOLA clinic. which makes me think I need to start a new thread.
June 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 pm #
quinacridones,
Thank you for your post. I agree with nearly everything you wrote and I appreciate that you wrote it. I should have been more careful about “armchair intellectual” and “lazy analysis,” because I didn’t mean that to reflect on the actual analysis & experience about trans oppression, but it reads that way. That’s fucked up and I’m really sorry.
I keep reading these blog posts/comments and I keep crying my eyes out. I guess I keep thinking about the haze of trauma and oppression that sits in New Orleans and the bravery of Black women to try and do something incredible — create this space — through their process of losing people, losing their homes, losing their city. Through the process of suicides and homicides and other kinds of violence. Through the process of re-occurring hurricanes, re-occurring traumas. I keep thinking here is a group of Black women who have broken their backs to do the impossible — create this space — and they know that, despite their goal to offer services to all women, there wasn’t enough time to make sure that their shit was all the way together with some women. Again, this is not just about transwomen, but other sisters that urgently need health care that they also want to support and are having a hard time providing. Then they are transparent about where they are weak. And they get called all sorts of things on blogs by anonymous people who don’t know them and don’t care to know them.
So, when I say “armchair intellectual” and “lazy analysis,” I am speaking to this phenomenon in which people get to call other people bigots without bothering to get more information. I should have written that I respect and honor the testimony that sisters & other transfolks have offered on the blogs about the feeling of rejection and isolation that they experience when they read that the clinic doesn’t yet feel prepared to offer services to transwomen and that this rejection and isolation is part of a broader pattern of transphobia within feminist spaces and within the healthcare industry. And that people have paid for this oppression with their lives. I understand this and I should have spoken to it, and it’s fucked up that I didn’t.
So, let me tell you why. Because when I read Donna (whose writing I’ve always and continue to respect) and queen emily write stuff like “I’m not a genius, but can’t they just…” and “…it’s not rocket science,” what I hear is “Yeah, stupid backwards n*****s, what’s your fucking problem? Why are you such bigots?”
I’m noticing that, in no blog post written about this issue do the words “Hurricane Katrina” come up. How is it that, when we give props to the project, it’s really easy to acknowledge the context in which the project came about and continues to exist, but when we critique the project, all that context gets thrown out the window?
So, yes, transphobia. But, yes, also racism. And yes, also geographic privilege. And yes, also classism.
So when I say “lazy,” what I mean is there needs to be a better integration of all of these issues when we talk about it rather than a “that’s just some transmisogynist shit” blow off of all the other issues. Ironically, I think my original comment failed at this as well, so…fuck. Again, I appreciate your intervention.
June 23rd, 2009 at 2:05 pm #
I think you’re right. Thank you. and in case I haven’t made it clear, I am very sorry for my defensive posturing that did nothing more than belittle very real fucking words. I am sorry.
I took forever to write, so I should’ve clarified as more comments were coming through. I had only read up to Firefly’s second response. Thatgirlhasissues’ comment fired me up, along with the pieces of defensiveness in your responses. I couldn’t break it down cuz the sheer amount of wrongness just shorted part of my brain, so my comment is in response to the general stuff that’s was the air.
It’s not my place to accept your apology, as I’m not a trans female spectrum genderqueer, but I do appreciate that you are grappling with this issue and dealing with the defensiveness, I know it’s tough to deal with.
which is making my head vomit trying to figure out how to do all three.
There’s never a not painful way of handling this, as long as the issue at hand is painful. Processing your unawareness of cis privilege and asking for transparency and accountability in the same post was a huge mistake. All the processing trivialized the point of the discussion, which came at the end, and spilled all over the place. You do need to process, and publicly is fine, as this is your personal blog. But it should’ve been a separate post so you could get it out and deal with it without taking away from the issue with NOWHC policy issue.
But now the cat’s out of the bag, so what do we do with it? I’m not an organizer so I don’t know how this accountability process works. I’m a one-step-at-a-time kinda person. My suggestion is first, before everything else, find out what their actual policy is, and so everyone, especially Queen Emily and other trans women in NOLA will know what’s going on and take the next step from there. If all this stuff is overheating your brain right now (and I know much about overcooked neuromeats), an assurance to discuss that information is a good first step. Also, if you help voz get in contact with folks in Incite! NYC, that would be an excellent opportunity to help move this process forward. There is ridiculously little positive media out there with trans women of color, even trans people of color in general, representing and without apology (or cis* nonsense).
June 23rd, 2009 at 2:11 pm #
I posted before I read thatgirlhasissue’s latest comment, so I’m writing up an addition for her latest posts too.
June 23rd, 2009 at 2:18 pm #
queen emily,
You write: “We DON’T take up more resources, and we have as much right to what resources there are as any other woman.”
I feel you and I don’t disagree as it relates to financial resources. But there are other kinds of resources. For example, when I worked with them as they were getting off the ground, they had a crazy hard time finding medical staff that was down with feminist/queer political analysis of health justice, mostly because, after Katrina, folks were just gone.
So, we know that folks in the healthcare industry, trained doctors/nurses, don’t have a great record with transpositive healthcare. You are in New Orleans now (I don’t know how long you’ve been there), but I don’t know how much research you’ve done around access to healthcare in the area, but I happen to know that it was bad before Katrina and it’s a crisis since. So we might imagine that the resources of let’s say well-trained, proqueer, prowoman, protrans, prodisability, problack, proimmigrant doctors/nurses who will work for the clinic for a pittance are few and far between. I want to be clear that I don’t know what the collective’s process is around this issue, but given the extraordinary local conditions, I can imagine that, yes, things that seem simple might actually be a little more like rocket science on the ground.
June 23rd, 2009 at 2:19 pm #
thatgirl–u know I am feeling u SO hard. I am trying SO hard to not be defensive. but I am sitting in that same place that you are, and where I’m like–it’s just not that fucking easy. It’s just NOT. And your point about hurricane katrina not being talked about at all–that is SO right on. And it gets to what I was trying to say in the two previous comments–YES, YES YES YES, now that I am not defensive, or should I say less defensive YES I get and see that transphobia. And holy JESUS do I owe SO much to trans friends that took time out of their precious days with their precious amazing partners to talk me through this shit. YES.
but at the same time, hold up. hold up hold up hold up. it’s not that easy. There are two groups that are marginalized working with each other. And let’s be frank here—there are two groups that are not *marginalized*–but *fucking traumatized* talking to each other. these aren’t just empty words–this is real world shit, where fucking traumatized women are interacting with fucking traumatized women. HOw the fuck do we negotiate that? Is it really as simple as “bfp is making this all about being “more civilized”? Is it really as simple as that?
I mean, I myself–my head is just SWIMMING with trying to figure out how to negotiate and understand everything that is going on here, while still being accountable to my privileges and that I know I am defensive and blah blah blah.
how can this (as in all the power dynamics and real world problems and multiple perspectives existing in one body and online versus offline versus online) all be dismissed so immediately?
June 23rd, 2009 at 2:34 pm #
bfp,
you write,
“…two groups that are not [just] *marginalized – but *fucking traumatized* talking to each other…”
Exactly. I think that’s why my hands are shaking as I type and I am crying uncontrollably at this point. I just can’t deal with folks calling these women “hateful” after what I’ve seen them go through. I am committed to working to reach through and really pay attention to what folks are saying about transoppression and getting my ally shit together, but I have to say, it’s really fucking hard b/c I feel that the overwhelming response in the discourse is “fuck those stupid hateful bigots,” and I just…no.
This won’t work unless we operate as allies to everyone, “allies” meaning if we (um, you and I at least) aren’t experiencing the oppression/trauma that trans folks are experiencing or Katrina survivors are experiencing and we have commitments to show up for everyone, then we better figure out how to deal with that shit.
(Also, I feel like I’m experiencing a trigger from the prop 8 wars with my fellow queers over here and my fellow black sisters and brothers over there, and I’m kind of freaking out now. But, you know, this is how this goes, I guess.)
June 23rd, 2009 at 3:03 pm #
and finally, I am not in town right now, i am attending classes at a university in colorado right now–so I cut a bunch of shit out of the day today so that I could attend to this thread, but now, I have to get back to work. which means that I am going to be gone from this thread at least until tomorrow because I have class until 10 tonight and no computer at home. and tomorrow I am going to attend the stuff I am supposed to, so I’m going to be busy.
I am not bowing out of the conversation, but I will not be a part of it for a while and as a result, I am putting this thread on mod. It’s going to take time for me to get back to it, and to give as much time to it as I have today, and I ask for your patience…..thanks so much.
June 23rd, 2009 at 3:58 pm #
I’m glad that you brought up Hurricane Katrina, because I wasn’t thinking of that and I should’ve been. It does complicate the way that folks talk to each other, and I hadn’t been thinking about how much more difficult it makes things. I am privileged in the fact that I wasn’t affected by Katrina. And I tend not to imagine the situation on a visceral level because the thought of going through such a disaster as a trans person and/or a disabled person scares the shit out of me and is testimony to how damned good I’ve been having it, even being homebound. And I’ve been pretty ignorant thinking some of these things could be straightforward.
However, I’m the wrong person to be talking about these things. Right now, we’re getting into the privileges of trans people arguing here, which is legitimate, but it also means that we’re having the wrong conversation with the wrong people. Right now there’s a division being set up between struggling women of color who have survived Katrina and trans people and that’s just…
To get to this point means that I’ve been taking up way too much space. Forget everything I said here. NOWHC doesn’t need to be accountable to me or a lot of people in this conversation. They need to first be accountable to those trans women in NOLA, many of whom who are poor and of color and have survived Katrina too. NOWHC has to explain first, to those trans women survivors of color why they are excluded, and they have to listen to those trans women first when if they decide to change their policy.
There have been very few comments in this discussion outside of QT from trans women in general and among them only one woman of color.
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:20 pm #
Please don’t make the mistake of splitting people up into camps. Please?
It’s not about trans people in one corner and WOC in another corner. What about trans women of color? Trans women of color who live in NOLA and went through Hurricane Katrina and who need healthcare like anybody else? It’s a little disappointing to read these anecdotes, however true, that completely erase trans people from the population of New Orleans and attempts to excuse the fact that they are human beings who need health care under the Katrina narrative and the difficulty of organizing. Erasing a whole group of people who need health care by paying lip service and not medical service will not make organizing easier.
This is really disappointing. I don’t think it is as easy to start drawing concentric circles of privilege around this situation. The health center says it will provide services to “marginalized and underserved women.” Then in the actual breakdown of services it disclaims that it cannot provide care to trans people male assigned at birth or who have had genital sex reassignment surgery. What difference does it make to say you are committed to working with your clients if people are not even eligible to be clients? It feels transphobic to its core to say in one breath you support trans people and in another breath say you cannot offer care to them unless they have the right parts. Hatred or no hatred, the effect results in serious consequences for trans women — going without another health care resource.
And if an organization claims to be for people like me while excluding me, I think I’d be beyond pissed and have a right to be.
Fire Fly is right — I don’t see how trans women are being centered in this discussion at all. I see Queen Emily and Galling Galla and Estrobutch commenting on what it takes to provide health care to them as trans women. And then I see lengthy analysis on what their words are taken to mean and not on their experiences with receiving health care as trans women. I don’t think it’s right to minimize white trans women’s voices in this scenario or pretend they’re treating Incite like a billion-dollar organization when they’re pointing out that health care for women includes ALL women, includes them as women. I think trans women would know if their medical treatment requires the same resources as treating cis women or not. So to see them identifying the treatment and care they need, and then in the next moment seeing it dismissed with “sigh” because of the word cissexism is really fucking wrong.
And I don’t think that as cis women (of color and white) we can really defend or mitigate whatever Incite is choosing to do without hearing from them, nor do I think we can measure the benefit. That’s for trans women to decide and create. We can’t sit and tell trans women (of color and white) what it’s like on the ground if we’re not NOWHC, either.
And in the meantime, trans women are not having their health care needs met.
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:51 pm #
YOu know what slyvia–I hear what you’re saying. I do. BUt I think that it also misses what I WAS SAYING. which is that incite! needs to fucking be clear about what the fuck they are talking about and then we need to take it from there. All that other shit you’re talking about–it was me addressing stuff that was said here.
Again–I AM NOT LOOKING TO SOLVE WHAT THE CLINIC IS DOING WITH THIS BLOG POST. I am looking to take the back channel emails and listserves and make them fucking public.
And clearly, that’s not fucking working.
SO…what do I do now?
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:24 pm #
I’m looking up different places to call and determine if care may be provided and here’s what I’ve found so far.
These are the numbers for FSU Health System patient representatives around Louisiana: http://www.lsuhospitals.org/Patients/Patient-Reps.htm
Also, there’s the possibility of trying a federally qualified health center that receives grants under the Public Health Service Act (more info here) and you can enter the city/state/zip code here to see if there is a clinic in the area. Call, ask if they provide the services needed, and… yeah. http://findahealthcenter.hrsa.gov/
I feel like I’m giving out a wild goose chase but in the meantime? It’s definitely worth a shot.
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:25 pm #
alright. I deleted the post and put in what this conversation is about. This is not about my call for transparency. this about my fucked up attitude.
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:32 pm #
sylvia–you made the point about me saying that this was two camps. Yes. Totally. And I said that in the beginning–that trans immigrant women exist and this clinic is one of the only places that deals with immigrant women with no papers, which is why it is important to me to try to figure out what the fuck is going on, rather than dismissing everything straight out of hand.
But that didn’t translate into the last comment I made about “let’s talk about the dynamics here”–but again–I am confused even to myself because I was talking about the lets’ talk about the dynamics *HERE* in THIS convo which *is* a convo between woc and white women and trans white women–but at the same time I also said–but let’s not make this about the clinic, because the problem with the clinic is not that there are these weird dynamics going on, but that they don’t service trans women.
SO, I was basically calling for opposite things–and what that did was make trans women of color completely invisible.
That was a total fuck up on my part. And thank you, sylvia for pointing it out.
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:46 pm #
EXACTLY.
Initiating a public conversation on this blog about the process for coming up with the policy… who does that serve? Perhaps the people who’ve been referred there from here. But while they are part of the community that needs accountability, they are not the centre of it. The centre needs to be trans women of colour. Dismissing that absolutely vitally critical element of accountability as ‘trans women’s job’ is irresponsible. It’s up to Incite! to make themselves accountable.
Bfp:
thatgirlhasissues:
I’m not seeing how skewering trans woc allies by calling us racist, classist, white-privileged, geographically privileged is going to make this go away. This is and has always been about trans woc. The fact that you haven’t made space for any trans woc to speak here is really problematic, I have to say. You’ve both erased trans woc from this conversation.
Assuming that trans woc are not bearing the burdens of oppression, classism, climate change, state violence, racism, capitalism, sexism, and crisis right alongside their cis privileged sisters is just misleading. And that cis privileged woc somehow get a pass from transphobia for any of those oppressions… as if that’s an effective way to move forward, is mind-boggling. Exclusion is never an effective way for a community to affirm itself. Putting off meeting the needs of a marginalised section of the community is never an effective way for a community to build a base.
If that’s what you’re hearing then you need to take the defensiveness out of your ears. That’s not what anyone has said, not even the trans woc who’ve been excluded from this blog!
Because really. Trans woc deserve better than their tone being complained about.
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:54 pm #
FF said this:The fact that you haven’t made space for any trans woc to speak here is really problematic, I have to say.
–don’t assume that voz is “all” trans woc who speak here or who I am concerned about when it comes to trans women of color and speaking. That is all I am going to say and all I am at liberty to discuss.
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:01 pm #
“–don’t assume that voz is “all” trans woc who speak here or who I am concerned about when it comes to trans women of color and speaking. That is all I am going to say and all I am at liberty to discuss.”
What exactly does that mean? You don’t want to engage with trans woc who call you on an immense amount of cis privilege because it makes you feel uncomfortable…?
Because that’s where it sounds like you’re coming from, bfp. A lot of times you’ve referenced your “fucked up attitude” with regard to this but you haven’t actually substantiated that with much…
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:35 pm #
lucullean–well. we’re going to have to be content with the situation as it is. I don’t like knowing that, but it is what it is. I take responsibility for not saying anything else, and if that makes me be a person that is not substantiating my words with actions, then I take responsibility for that. You do what you need to do as a result (talking to you personally and to anybody reading this)–and I can already promise you that I won’t like it. because I hate it when people hate me. but oh well. I am a big girl.
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:39 pm #
Sylvia/M,
It’s true that the perspective from which I’m writing is not so much about the project of centering transwomen, but I am questioning the process/project of accountability which I think was called for by queen emily’s original post and by bfp’s post. (But, admittedly, I’m getting a little lost on the discussion about the point of bfp’s post and should she have written it, etc.)
So, when I am talking about Black women, I’m not talking about Black women in general, I’m specifically talking about the Black women who started the clinic, who wrote the website, and who are being critiqued. I am not putting woc on one side and trans women on the other side. I am thinking about the Black women who started this clinic and the folks who have critiqued them online.
As I said above, I agree that the sigh wasn’t cool, but I stand by the assertion that if you can dismiss the whole thing by asserting it’s “just cissexism” at play here, then you are operating with a lot of willful privilege.
To seriously deal with the problem in the political context of Katrina is not to dismiss the problem, but it is to deal with the problem in context. To objectify a group of Black women as stupid, hateful, backwards, bigots, etc based on language from an outdated website that they wrote in the context of crisis is oppressive. It doesn’t mean that the critique has no legitimacy. Fire Fly, if you want to think about this as me preoccupied about “tone,” then I don’t know what to tell you except that I disagree. Further, I didn’t call anybody in particular “racist,” “classist,” etc, the way that others have been called out. I am bringing attention to *all* the oppressions at play in the discourse and in the context of New Orleans and supporting a clinic there. Doing so is not meant to make anything “go away,” but to clarify that things are rarely about any one oppression.
It is true that the clinic women are not the only ones that experienced traumatic things associated with Katrina (Sylvia/M, I don’t understand why you call it a “narrative” and “anecdotes,” I didn’t write those things b/c they are some broad things that we know happened in general, they are actual things that happened and are happening to the actual people who are being critiqued, and frankly, these words feel painfully dismissive). I don’t assert the context to excuse, I assert the context to flesh out.
So, look. I responded to what I think I heard and what I continue to hear: Folks don’t feel like the context is particularly relevant, and it’s actually really easy and simple for the nowhc to effectively meet their vision for excellent healthcare services for all women/transfolks in New Orleans, but they’re just not doing it b/c they don’t give a shit. If this is how you think about it (which I hope is just a defensive misreading on my part), then I disagree.
Generally, I support community accountability that is fully informed by the context of the harm and respectful of everyone’s humanity.
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:45 pm #
Last thing: I’ll avoid commenting on this again for at least a day or two, so I can reflect and do my best to bring my best self, and to reflect on how to “center trans women of color Katrina survivors” when it seems like no one who has commented online is out about having had that experience.
And, I’m going to cut way down on my own participation in this dialogue. Starting now.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:31 pm #
the thing is. Ok, as i’ve said a thousand fucking times, I have reacted defensively throughout this thread. I have made comments like “hate hate hate is tha tall we can talk about” but the thing is, the original post said VERY SPECIFICALLY that I thought one thing about why there are no services being given to trans woc at this clinic (there were no resources to do so)–but then trans women specifically AND IT WAS LINKED TO WHERE IT WAS SAID, said oh, that’s wrong. there is no differences in the services we need.
And because of that and convos I was having offline, I realized, oh, wait a minute–things are happening here in MY conversations that need to be brought out into the light. I was wrong about what I assumed, and I was assuming what I did from a place of privilege. And there is odd power dynamics that are going on that ARE transphobic–um, how much more transphobic can it be than for me to whisper to a trans woman everything is going to be ok because i said so and noooo you can’t have any say in what is being talked about!–and I want to bring those convos out into the open because that dynamic is WRONG.
I never ever EVER fucking said that what the clinic is doing is ok–and I made the post because I had been having conversations that made me see 1. how they were dealing with it was wrong and 2. my assumptions were wrong.
but somewhere in here, that post I made became not about the woman I was talking to and her needs, not the fact that these conversations were happening offline and trans people who were actually trying to access the services were being told to “just trust us”–it became that I did a bunch of fucked up shit.
I DID say a bunch of fucked up shit.
And now, I want to know what to say to the trans woman who is still not getting services. I want to know what to say to the incite! women that are speaking offline. I want to know what to do about that power dynamic and I want to know why that trans woman who is in NOLA is less important that holding me accountable to something I never said or even holding me accountable to shit I *did* say. I mean, it is possible to hold to conversations at the same time? To say–listen, bfp, what you said was fucked up defensive and I don’t get where the fuck you get the right to say that–AND, hm. what IS going on with those private conversations? ANd what *can* we do about them? Should they be happening at all?
because like I’ve said a THOUSAND times–this post was NOT about me deciding what to do to solve the issues trans people have with the clinic. This was about figuring out what to do about the power dynamics that I personally was interacting with. That WERE transphobic.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:31 pm #
Okay, the thing is in this conversation I don’t think that people are framing the Black women who formed this clinic as stupid or anything. BFP especially did not and has not in this conversation and she is guarding against it. But the sum of their actions — not them or the clinic — amount to erasing medical care for trans women. No amount of debate over how to reference it justifies what is happening right now.
Also, the reason I wrote “narrative” and “anecdote” when pointing out your references to Katrina has nothing to do with erasing the fact Hurricane Katrina was and is a very real tragedy affecting New Orleans. I wrote it because the framing of how the clinic arose out of the crisis of Katrina erases the trans women in the community the clinic services. Perhaps it is unintentional; but it reads as if you’re saying health care for trans women in New Orleans isn’t an immediate concern in the wake of the crisis that they (along with women of color and the women brave enough to build this clinic) lived through. For the reason that these Black women created this clinic, we can wait as long as it takes for an answer, we can continue to laud their work even as some sisters who could reap the benefits of treatment (to our knowledge online) cannot access it.
I felt that was dismissing the immediate concerns of this particular type of care for trans women behind the context of what happened with Katrina and what raised the urgency of creating this clinic. It’s dishonest to say on one hand the critiques of the clinic’s policy are valid, and on the other hand to say the critiques themselves — of identifying women’s health care that could be available regardless of gender assignment at birth or surgery, services that the health center already offers to cisgendered women — are gang piling on the Black women who created this clinic in Katrina’s wake and erasing its history.
I could be wrong and I’m willing to own that; but that’s what I’m seeing.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:45 pm #
sylvia, I don’t think that’s what she’s saying. I think she’s saying–there’s a difference between saying ok, for an example, rush limbaugh is an asshole. We all KNOW he’s an asshole, and that’s an easy critique to make. He’s not trying to changing anyting, in fact, he’s actively working to continue hurting people. Saying he’s a fucking asshole is easy and we’ve all done it. But look at, just as an exmaple to keep it all within the political sphere, how people are struggling to deal with obama. On the one hand, he does some really fucking good things for the queer community. and he’s proven himself to that community. But on the other hand–he’s also done some deeply fucked up shit, like having that one preacher who is queerphobic speack at the commencement (as an exmaple)–so what the fuck do we do with this? He is clearly not a total asshole fuckwad like limbaugh is–and so queer folks aren’t just writing him off. But at the same time, he’s got some seriously fucked up wrong shit that he’s done and some other queer people ARE writing him off. What do we do next?
To bring that back to what is going on here–that’s the point I’ve been trying to make *very badly and defensively* since the first comment. And I think that is the point that this girl is coming from as well. NOLA women are NOT rush limbaugh. They are obama. and i was from the beginning trying to say that just as how some queer folks are wanting to work with obama and others are saying fuck off and THAT IS OK–I recognize that no trans woc has ANY obligation AT ALL to work with incite!, BUT I WANT TO. because I don’t think that they are coming from a place of rush limbaugh, I think they are coming from a place of obama. And I would never ever EVEr ask any trans woman to come work with us, lets figure this out! because I’ve been asked the same damn thing and I know how tiring it is. this is cis privilege and why the hell SHOULDN”T cis women be talking about cis privilege.
I was talking specifically to incite!saying bring these convos out in the open. I want to talk. I want to figure out what to do so that this power dynamic is out in public and it can be worked through and talked about.
June 23rd, 2009 at 9:02 pm #
for whatever it’s worth, I’m nodding along with Sylvia & Fire Fly & Donna.
June 23rd, 2009 at 9:08 pm #
sigh. ok. I’m done. I admit it now, I never should have made the post. And I never should have tried to defend it. And I the reasons behind trying to defend it were wrong. I should’ve just shut my mouth from the beginning and that I didn’t speaks to my ignorance.
I’m sorry I made the post. I’m sorry I reacted so defensively to the poeple critiquing the post. I’m sorry I said transphobic shit and it was only said out of total stupidity.
I mean it. you can only say but but but for so long before you realize that oh, hey, maybe there’s a problem with you saying but but but. if you restate what you were trying to say a thousand times and it’s still getting the same response–than there’s something simply wrong with what you are saying.
Sorry it took 52 comments for me to figure it out.
June 23rd, 2009 at 9:13 pm #
and with that. enough talking about me. as many people have pointed out, this whole thread does nothing more than take the spot light off of trans women. so I am closing comments on this thread. believe me, I will most certainly think and listen before I ever post about this shit again. Now, let’s all do as voz has rightfully demanded, go over to HER website and center the voices of trans woc. because that is not happening here at ALL.
Again I apologize for speaking when what I should’ve been doing was shutting up and listening.
ETA: here is voz’s blog.
June 23rd, 2009 at 9:39 pm #
ok, this is me again–and of course I changed my mind agian. I started to think that me shutting down comments would be a way for me to shut down critiques and I don’t want to do that–SO Im keeping the thread OPEN–but I’m not going to be commenting. I am going to be doing what I should’ve done to begin with, shut up and listen. I will not respond to anybody’s critique, because I don’t want to get myself caught in the trap again of arguing and fighting well, that’s not what I MEANT. so my way of negotiating that is to leave comments open so that I don’t shut down critiques, but to not respond to them so that this is not about me me me me and my need to be clear on what I was saying.
I hope that is ok with everybody.
June 24th, 2009 at 3:01 am #
I came here as an ally to women like Voz. Not to play “trans trumps race”. Because I’m sure that in most situations of immediate survival-like how do I get through the next hour of my life, or help get someone else through. THat my trans female self is better off than the cis women who operate that clinic, Mostly because white masculinity is a powerful thing-especially with assumptions ppl make about me when read me as a cis butch – mean, angry (fuck yeah), and violent (mostly to walls and my knuckles). that plus size and whiteness gets me a lot of breathing room instead of the short leash thats given to masculinity in ppl of color.
But were not talking about me exvept for sharing experience that I share with some twoc with health care. its not about the clinic women either. Personally I don’t give a fuck about the right or wrong of the clinic women, I care about trans women getting shit on yet again in a life or death way.
I call bullshit on the “context” argument because I guarantee you that they CAN give care because I’m sure they already are and don’t know it (see i’m getting free repro health insurance to gover gyno and treatment of an infection by passing as cis right now eventho i have zero reproductiveness).
I’m not trying to be cold about the on the ground situation and I’m sure I don’t have half the sand for it as these cis women do–I’m thinking about the trans women/females down there in the middle of it. Taking shit from *all* sides.
And I’m actually really glad that I don’t know the clinic women because it would be yet another situation where amazing women break yr fucking heart.
June 24th, 2009 at 4:41 am #
Since LJ is useless for this, a manual trackback: http://quinacridones.livejournal.com/73637.html
June 24th, 2009 at 7:11 am #
When I wrote my last comment for some reason thatgirlhasissues comment wasn’t showing, so I had no idea what you were agreeing with, bfp. Once I did see it, I had to walk away, I was so angry I knew I would say something I would regret later. Almost everything she has said is one big derail and you followed her right off the tracks.
You know, if I was a poor uninsured woman in NOLA and they told me they didn’t have enough funds to give me full healthcare, I would be grateful for whatever they offered, since at the moment I have nothing. Any woman understands this, it doesn’t matter if you are cis or trans. What any woman doesn’t understand is discrimination. A black woman wouldn’t understand why her life is worth less than other WOC if they told her we have limited funds so we only offer healthcare to latinas, native american, and asian women. Why should a trans woman feel any different about discrimination? Every trans woman has said that it would be fine if they can’t see a specialist, but could we please just have the same treatments being offered to cis women? None of them are insisting that the clinic better do everything for them. So the- We’re too poor! We have to discriminate! No choice in the matter! -bullshit.
And what the fuck is this and why wasn’t it called out?: “I’m open to having a conversation about whether a clinic should open if it’s not prepared to serve everyone it hopes to.” This is a huge fucking strawman. No one said the clinic shouldn’t have opened until it was ready to offer every service under the sun! Not only that, but BFP, remember the post you did where you said you talked about how migrant workers in agriculture are treated like shit and that some idiot white woman said, “What do you want me to do? Stop eating?” and how that was all or nothing bullshit? What makes this statement any different from that kind of all or nothing bullshit?
And let’s get off the- twoc this, twoc that, twoc, twoc, twoc. The website says they serve any marginalized community, and goes on and on about intersectionality, etc. That means a poor white woman, an immigrant white woman, a disabled white woman, white trans men and genderqueer people, etc etc etc can all come to the clinic for health care. They do not only offer their services to WOC, marginalized white women are welcome too. That’s why I think it’s incredibly unfair to tell Em that she is pulling out the white privilege when she critiques the clinic, absolutely not, she isn’t critiquing them because they are WOC, she is critiquing the discrimination when they give health care to every marginalized woman except trans women.
I’ve got a lot more to say but this is long enough and I’m just getting angry and frustrated again, so I’ll save it for now.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:12 am #
Perspective of a white transwoman new to this topic:
I haven’t read every word of this conversation (as it is spread out all over the blogosphere), but so far what I’ve seen has only been conversation about whether the policy of transwoman-exclusion is a product of hate. Honestly, I don’t think this is the most productive course to take. Is it cissexist? Of course, how could it not be? We live in a cissexist society.
But the point is, we should be focusing on how to build a coalition and move beyond the confrontational polemics of identity politics. Coalition building and raising consciousness together where there is discomfort are the “hard part” of building a coalition to bring about radical change in the world.
I believe my trans-siblings and I should offer to open a dialogue with Incite! starting with, what can we trans*folk offer or bring to the table that would make it possible for NOWHC to change its policy and offer treatment to transwomen who need it? Is it a matter of resources? Is it a matter of volunteer time? Money? Or is simply a matter of dialogue in good faith and consciousness raising together? What can we do that will make it easier for us to walk together on this path?
June 24th, 2009 at 8:39 am #
bfp:
i have to speak up–you said you wanted to create a safe space for trans women
then you took it back
what gives?
sounds like common sense to me
you made promise
then you broke it
making cisgendered feminists/womanists look even worse
please reconsider.
-L.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:10 am #
bfp, sadly I think your response to almost all the twoc and allies critiquing your cissexism here can be summed up as follows: “Yeah. So?”
June 24th, 2009 at 9:18 am #
hahahahahahaha. I just saw the tweet online. this is passed the stage where I take it seriously any more. yes, yes…call me out. go ahead.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:26 am #
tinyrevolution – that’s bullshit.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:27 am #
Fuxake.
Either you are gonna stfu and listen and make this a safe place for trans women to talk… like you appear to have promised or you aren’t. Looks like the latter.
Either this isn’t all about you, as per the OP, or it is. Looks like the latter.
And how many trans women are becoming sick or ill and unable to get treatment while you sit and type response after response justifying yourself, your words, and your actions?
Anyway, as for their mission statement. Does it mean (a) there are some services we are as yet unable to offer e.g. prostate examinations (though really, how fucking hard would this be? really? I mean, most local GPs offer this service, it’s hardly specialised)? or does it mean (b) we are trans misogynistic in the extreme and actually are deliberately going out of our way to exclude trans women.
And so far almost every cis person I’ve seen writing about this has said oh but it must be (a) it must it must because they’re so fucking nice and inclusive and wonderful!! Let me just run and ask the nice people at the clinic what they mean!!
But you know what? It’s not (a). Because dudes, these people, looking at their statement, they know how to phrase stuff. I mean, they’re Doctors, okay, they know words of more than two syllables, fuxake. If they’d meant to say “we can’t yet offer prostate exams or wev” (and again, that in itself is BULL SHIT) …. they’d have fucking said it!!!!
Plus, and here’s another fucking thing… a women’s clinic that’s down with trans men? What? Seriously? I’ve no massive problem with blokes, but you know what? GUYS IS THIS A WOMEN’S CLINIC OR NOT???
So no. It’s (b). So yeah, it’s tough, it’s fucking hard when your sheroes are shown to be bigots, especially if they’ve seemed to you in the past to be a refuge from bigotry. But get the fuck over it. They’re bigots. Rail against them, tell them to change, right here, right now. But don’t come with all that “oooh I’ll just skip over and ask me vewwy best fwends” shit. Because it isn’t washing.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:32 am #
Okay. First of all this is BFP’s blog. She can continue to speak on this subject and any other freely here.
Second, everyone can also freely go to Voz’s space or to any other person’s space that centers trans women. There’s no bar on her explaining herself further. If you think she’s digging herself into a hole, why not go to the place that’s doing what you think is right instead of snapping on BFP here?
I don’t see the purpose of what’s going on right now.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:00 am #
I call bullshit on the “context” argument because I guarantee you that they CAN give care because I’m sure they already are and don’t know it (see i’m getting free repro health insurance to gover gyno and treatment of an infection by passing as cis right now eventho i have zero reproductiveness).
I’m not trying to be cold about the on the ground situation and I’m sure I don’t have half the sand for it as these cis women do–I’m thinking about the trans women/females down there in the middle of it. Taking shit from *all* sides.
(Thanks, BFP, for opening up comments again.)
…IAWTC. And that’s another problem: they’re forcing trans women to closet themselves in order to access care. They aren’t only being asked to wait; they’re being asked to help create and participate in a hostile environment. What happens when they can eventually walk through the doors?
I respect the massive undertaking here–and God knows shoestring women’s clinics have saved my health on a few occasions–but the problem isn’t only the exclusionary decision that was made. The problem is that it was made unilaterally. Cis women took it upon themselves to decide what the best bad option was for their potential trans clients. I’m sure there are–I know there are–trans women who choose no medical care over transphobic, ignorant, or partial medical care. It’s a valid choice. There are also trans women who decide that they need treatment enough to put up with whatever ignorance or hatred or stinginess they might encounter. That’s also a valid choice.
This wasn’t chosen, though; it was imposed.
I am confident that, “Sit tight and we’ll get to you eventually,” is not a solution that would have been arrived at in conversation with the NOLA trans community. It’s not a feasible stopgap for patients. Trans commenters on this issue can be trusted to have insight into the difference between the good and the perfect; whatever TGHI may think, most are not speaking from a place of privileged access to medical care.
Also, the idea that trans female bodies are categorically different from cis female bodies, such that a cis-centered clinic cannot possibly treat any inch of a trans patient? That hormones or surgery make you almost a different species? That’s an assertion familiar to most trans people who have sought care or coverage. It’s something to be very wary about.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:16 am #
This all started with Em looking for health care, finding a clinic that would finally give her the care she needs while respecting her as a woman only to be shot down with that one paragraph. Imma throw my cis privilege around right now and tell all of you that the only issue, THE ONLY ISSUE, is getting proper health care for Em. She said over at QT that she is hoping that BFP and Little Light will be able to talk to their contacts with Incite! and find out what is going on. Right now the hope is that they just screwed up the wording on the website and that Em and all other trans women in NOLA are welcome. I think all of us dividing into factions need to shut the hell up. None of us know that the women running NOWHC just love them some trans women and are the bestest people in the universe, or have their hateration on and are shunning the EVOL trans women! So this whole back and forth with—they’re wonderful—no they’re horrible—no they’re wonderful—no they’re horrible! Is getting us nowhere fast. So I think we need to sit back and wait to see what BFP and LL find out. If it turns out that Em is welcome then we have all been yelling at each other for nothing, and next on the agenda is getting them to change the wording on the website so that no other trans woman will be turned away. If they aren’t treating trans women because of ignorance, then we need to educate them and let them know that 99.9999% of trans women’s needs are exactly the same as cis women’s needs, so start accepting trans women as patients with what you are already offering. And finally if it turns out that it really is just hate, transphobia, and transmisogyny, then hellfire should rain down on their heads and I’m open to any retaliation my trans sisters come up with.
Right now, I think both BFP’s defensiveness, and voz’s anger are distractions. Em is the one who has to live with the consequences and she is the one who needs to be centered in all these discussions. (As well as any other trans women in NOLA needing health care, but Em is the only one we know in this discussion now.)
June 24th, 2009 at 10:46 am #
Donna – THIS.
we are all bloodying ourselves up, and whether it’s here or at voz’s space, the women who need to be centered – trans women living in or around NOLA – aren’t.
and i agree with Sylvia that voz’s lj is a more appropriate place to have a trans women centered discussion about the issues involved.
i just feel that if we trans women and our allies continue to whack bfp over the head, neither we nor bfp will get anywhere.
i have to say: i do not believe that bfp’s actions come from malice. her actions are open to critique, and i have been a part of that, but for myself i do not want to continue to participate in a gang-up on bfp. that’s not going to help the trans women in NOLA who need health care.
we have made our critiques and spoken our minds here, now i personally want to give bfp room to get trans / cis issues sorted and get back to what she came to colorado for – going to college.
voz’s post is here.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:32 am #
What Donna said @ 10:16, in spades.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:33 am #
p.s. link to voz’ blog doesn’t work.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:33 am #
-never mind, saw GG’s update.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:35 am #
I wrote a lot of different things and I deleted it.
I remember when I started reading the RWOC blogosphere when seeing my first feminist blog war. I was wondering why some folks were pissed as fuck, why some people were responding to white feminists efforts to appease with what looked to be dismissals and uncontrollable anger. I understood the racism, but why the overreaction?
As I read more and more I began to understand where people were coming from, what experiences and history informed their analysis. I understood that my initial reaction was wrong, that their criticisms were justified. Once I started to better understand white supremacy and sexism, I stopped policing my and other poc’s anger and felt my own rage at the toxic waste hiding underneath a white person’s honeyed words. It was those folks who had a more aggressive and watchful stance against white
supremacy and sexism who taught me the most, who helped me climb into higher levels of understanding far beyond the standard discourses around race and gender, as well as queerness and disability.
I’m saying this because I feel there’s a barely whispered hostility towards Voz’s words. Seeing how no one has taken up or said anything (besides Mai’a) about her earlier offer to do an interview, it looks like no one is interested in talking to her about her history and perspective. Which is a shame. Because if folks are going to center trans women of color voices, we need to listen to a diverse range of voices, including both those who are have more moderate and reconciling critiques and those who take an aggressive stance against trans misogyny and cissexism. If we are going to be serious about addressing trans women’s oppression then we also have to face their anger too. If they’ve gone through too much or seen too much, if they’ve honed a brutal defense in order to survive, we can’t expect them to wrap themselves in silk, because we don’t want to see their scars.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:37 am #
Has anyone actually called this clinic, asked whoever answers the phone directly about this situation, and posted the results of that conversation?
Maybe it’s in the discussions somewhere on the net and I didn’t see it or something.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:38 am #
I posted before I saw Donna’s and GallingGalla’s update, and I, too, agree to bow of this convo here and continue at Voz’s.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:58 am #
This comment is in no way an excuse for the transphobia that has gone on here.
I’m curious why you either talk to Voz, and do what Voz says, or you are anti-twoc. There are a lot of twoc on the internet to talk to, learn from or with, and engage from a decolonized anti-transphobic perspective. It seems like, at least in the trans communities I participate in, that a lot of people are willing to engage one another and cissexual people on trans issues w/ varying levels of anger and engagement that have not been accused of making violent threats or encouraging others to do so. And who take accountability when they have said something offensive as much as they expect everyone else to do so. Any one of these people seems like an equally viable option. As no one person is a movement or the face of an identity group.
I don’t talk to Voz and that doesn’t make mean I have internalized transphobia or am transphobic against others in my communities. It means I have a choice who I talk to and what kind of conversations I choose to engage in.
(And yeah, I wrote this anonymously b/c I don’t want to be the next person voz trashes endlessly on the internet.)
June 24th, 2009 at 2:29 pm #
Thanks, Donna and GG. You’re right; this is about Em first. And BFP? As somebody who just got turned down for yet another shitty catastrophe policy, I appreciate that you’re trying to make healthcare more accessible.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:22 pm #
so cool that you find it funny, bfp.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:46 am #
bfp wrote:
Actually, no. I said that the process you had proposed did not seem to centre trans women, and it was problematic to ONLY make a conversation public when that conversation was being had amongst cis women, without also responding to what trans women were calling for, which, as I could see it, was for health care to be delivered to them. Whether that would be accomplished by transforming the conversation, or by some other means (e.g. media by trans women) should be on trans women’s terms.
That was what was problematic, from my pov; that cis women having a conversation about trans women, on cis women’s terms, whether in public or in private, doesn’t change the real problem dynamic. And the fact that you refused to publish the comments of a trans woc really didn’t make it seem like you were at all interested in opening up space for trans women’s voices to be heard in that conversation.
And despite insisting that your intentions were pure, you still committed the same mistake that you pointed out that Incite!/NOWHC were making: insisting that people trust you because of your track record of intersectional anti-oppressive work. Trust is important in organising, but it only stretches so far… And I know I’m already on your shit list (it was only a matter of time, really), so whatever I say won’t matter much to you any more, but please do us all a favour and live up to your promise to listen.
anonymous wrote:
Listening to a variety of voices doesn’t mean shutting out the ones you don’t like.
The only case I know of where Voz was accused of making violent threats was by a man who made a threat of violence against her in response. I’m not comfortable with the notion of cis women picking and choosing which trans women should speak about delivery of health care to trans women based on accusations which are informed by more than a little bit of transphobia.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:05 am #
And I’m not comfortable with people making assumptions about who BFP is and has been talking to. Also, I don’t remember BFP ever making a promise to publish comments by bullying fucking assholes, but I guess it’s possible I may have missed something in the history of this site, who knows.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:36 am #
Bfp had days to say whether or not there were trans women already involved in Incite! New Orleans/NOWHC and involved in putting policies together, but has not said there are. So there’s been no public accountability on that front.
I was also not born yesterday, and know when my words are being twisted. Never thought this blog would be the place, but I guess there was never any promise that it wouldn’t happen, either.
I’m done here.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:04 am #
Hey BFP! I was going to e-mail you but I didn’t see your address. I adore you. I’ve learned a lot from reading you and thinking really deeply about the issues that you raise. I’ve been embroiled in my own internet flare ups when I have tried to be an ally to woc and completely failed, even with my best intentions to stand solid. My words hurt someone else even when they were intended to give comfort and resolve a situation. It’s helped me to be more humble when calling out others and see things from the perspective of people who are blinded to the reality of others. This is an opportunity for you to show that we all are fallible and how you expect other people to behave when this happens. I hope that you can put the post back and allow the comments so you can dissect the situation. What went wrong and why, how you could/should have handled it differently. I missed the whole thing yesterday and we all have enough stress right now in real life. You are strong. You can do this. Peace, Kit
June 25th, 2009 at 7:17 am #
And I’m not comfortable with people making assumptions about who BFP is and has been talking to.
That’s what happens when people don’t have clear information from reliable sources, though. Mistrust is the natural result of disenfranchisement.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:34 am #
you know–the only thing I’m going to point to at this point is this:
Please see this: http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/women-and-trans-health-care/#comment-10273
and then ask yourself why me talking with and working with the woman who was rejected by the clinic to begin with is problematic and centering something that trans women were not calling for. Pay particular attention to the parts where it says that emily doesn’t want to educate incite! and where she says she has confidence that I and little light, another trans woman of color, will put pressure on incite! to do the right thing.
ETA: oh, and before you start, stop assuming that the blog statement at questioning transphobia was the only time that I ever talked with emily and/or little light.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:42 am #
Let’s just give BFP time to come back from Colorado and do whatever else she needs to do.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:42 am #
Spoke too soon!
June 25th, 2009 at 7:45 am #
well, actually sahara, I was in the middle of writing a comment saying exactly that. but since you wrote it…!:-)
I gave up two days now of a workshop that was paid for by my hard work and the sacrafice of my family and the money of dear friends that don’t have the money to give.
I will be back to this thread when I have time and on my own time. And we’re all going to just have to be content with that.
thanks,
bfp.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:54 am #
I think one of the problems we have discovered here is that accountability doesn’t only mean transparency, it also means giving other people privacy and confidentiality. I know bfp well enough that when she says something cryptic, she isn’t playing head games or trying to avoid responsibility, it’s because she has these competing interests. Haven’t we all had times when we have wanted the truth to come out, but we have a responsibility and loyalty to someone or several someones who would be vulnerable if we spoke out? If you don’t know bfp well, or just don’t like her, you might ascribe the worst motives and reasons for the things she does and says. I’ve known her since Fall 06, nearly 3 years. I’ll trust that she is doing what she thinks is best and is trying her damnedest to do the right thing.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:07 pm #
BFP, i can offer nothing remotely useful to this conversation… so i just want to tell you i love you. and i “know” you well enough to know that your heart and intentions are good, and that i support you in that. you know where to reach me if you ever need/want to.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:30 pm #
Bfp is an adult and can choose when and where she engages. The comments will still be here in a few days. I myself am responding now because I have to go out of town tomorrow morning (but you don’t see me sniping at people for making assumptions or calling people in to bite off heads in my defence).
I’ll also say that cis women fixating on one call for one specific kind of action by a trans woman doesn’t mean that trans women (plural) are included in dialogue and planning.
I am sure Queen Emily is able to speak for herself and clarify the comment, but my impression of it was not that she was trying to prescribe what she wanted for Incite! but only stating what she herself is prepared and not prepared to do. Which is fine — she shouldn’t have to educate anyone in order to access health care — and so is responding to it and trying to secure health services fo her.
But doing that won’t answer Bfp’s initial questions, especially: “If there is an actual process of creating resources to work with the trans community as they say that there is, will they also post that process online so that trans people looking for health services can hold them accountable to that process AND so that trans people *know* when they can actually access the services?
Also, are transpeople leading the process of change?”
And I didn’t see how the process of cis women talking about trans women, either publicly or privately, would answer them either. Presumably it would also involve more trans people than just the trans friends of people already organising (or who have previously organised) within Incite!
At the risk of infinite recursion, don’t make assumptions about what I assume, but then bad faith seems to be a one-sided accusation around here. I know for a fact that this isn’t the first time you’ve spoken with Queen Emily or LL. But as I said, talking to the trans people you’re already friends with doesn’t make for a very transparent policy process.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:02 pm #
sigh. fire fly…do you think it could be possible that i saw her comment and then contacted her about it? and that we discussed things and that the thought was there almost immediately, **this can’t happen behind closed doors, because other trans women need to be a part of the process IF THEY WANT TO BE**?
and that if they, like queen emily, didn’t want to be, then they didn’t have to? that it was recognized IMMEDITATLY that trans women have no fucking reason to trust any cis woman in the world, and as such, there should be NO pressure on anybody to interact with incite–but IF THEY WANTED TO, they could see what the hell was going on?
Fire fly–I am exasperated, and I know you are too. So I will just say–please have a good time while you are out of town. I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:58 pm #
BFP has more honesty and ability to be self-reflective than anyone i know. Because she doesn’t wrap herself in an airtight self-righteous analysis and actually leaves herself vulnerable to growth and critique, she has become a target. I don’t care whether its “supposed to be about her” or not. People in this comment thread have made it about her by using her as the nearest, easiest target. The sad thing is, this thread has pulled peoples attention from the substantive questions of: what are the facts of the situation in new orleans? and how can we all work to support people there to be able to provide the most comprehensive services to women and genderqueer people of color as possible?
June 26th, 2009 at 12:37 am #
Bfp, I have no doubt that you have good intentions, and had only the best intentions in trying to initiate dialogue around the NOWHC policy. But that was not the point of my critique.
Sure, Queen Emily and Little Light deserve to be listened to. And yes, trans women who don’t trust Incite! shouldn’t have to engage with Incite! But I have yet to see a trans woman in this discussion dismiss Incite! as a waste of time.
Instead, if Incite! has given trans women reasons to distrust them (and the NOWHC policy is a pretty huge one), shouldn’t cis women already involved in Incite! do something about that (in a way that centres trans women and is accountable to them)? Shouldn’t cis women be doing more than making yet another space for cis women to talk about trans women on cis women’s terms? Is it enough to get information about the policy, or should the policy itself and the process for making it also be changed?
I’m not convinced that trans women should be the ones to hold NOWHC/Incite! accountable, or that public transparency online in cis women’s spaces will achieve accountability. My point was that the process itself needs to change in order to achieve accountability to trans women and provide for their needs.
I feel like I’m not going to make myself clear whatever I do, so I’ll leave it at that. I really need to go now.
June 26th, 2009 at 1:10 am #
Jenny-
its not about “women and genderqueer poc” its about women and gq poc WHO ARE TRANS FEMALE. don’t play that same “women and trans” shit that started this mess.
and speaking for myself my harsh words were never an attack on bfp based on what I know of her. I don’t know shit about her. I thought raven’s eye wrote this post when i first commented. this is not about any single fucking cis woman. its about the effect of cis women’s actions on trans women.
June 26th, 2009 at 1:14 am #
“Estrobutch, knowing BFP like I do, she most certainly isn’t saying that they need to find a way to better word things to hide their transphobia. She’s saying the mission statement is fucked because it’s unclear about how they are serving trans women.”
see like this shit right here. I”m reading words here and responding not reading fucking minds.
and I think the mission is pretty fucking clear on that. No trans woman/female reads that and has any doubt in their fucking mind. but i’m bringing up old shit.
June 26th, 2009 at 1:27 am #
and not sure why or what good is gonna come from it. the dumb shit being said here is just the nearest punching bag.
June 26th, 2009 at 3:39 am #
FF – a pt of clarity (or 2)
1) I’m confused: Why is it that Queen Emily’s request, made specifically to BFP about this issue, is
“only stating what she herself is prepared and not prepared to do. Which is fine — she shouldn’t have to educate anyone in order to access health care — and so is responding to it and trying to secure health services fo her.”
But not talking to Voz or approving whatever comment she made her akin to disrespecting the entire community?
Does anyone have the rt to say they speak for the trans community as a whole?
Does anyone have the right to say their voice or their friend’s voice is more important than any other trans woman? especially the woman who brought the incite! situation up and is the trans woman speaking who is being barred from service?
2) I was not referring solely to the Bilerco incident; obviously Bilerco’s response included transphobic threat (and defending ENDA w/out transgender id included does too). But his actions do not negate hers there or elsewhere including her LJ page. And I resent you assigning cis gender to me b/c I pointed this out. (read my comments again)
I feel like those white women who say “we have more important things to do now” when I say this, but I feel like I have to say that I am tired of this back and forth about both BFP and Voz. I’m withdrawing from this conversation to actually call Incite! clinic in NOLA and find out what is going on. One thing I remember distinctly during Katrina was that 1. trans women were assaulted and excluded from services during evacuation (including the nationally reported bathroom incident) and 2. as a result, a lot of neighboring queer health organizations got involved in raising awareness and providing services. I for one need to know what happened since then to allow a disconnect between these orgs and Incite! and/or between these orgs and their initial commitment to trans advocacy. And I also remember trying to raise awareness about transphobia during Katrina and being shouted down by feminists who claimed “those stories are made up” or “I don’t believe that” and I want to know if that is part of why trans issues seem to have gotten erased. To me getting these questions answered and ensuring that women’s services are available to all of us is more important than continuing to yell at BFP b/c she chooses not to speak to Voz. (especially when we can all see that she is talking to other trans women, including those actually in NOLA)People have to be held accountable for their actions and words here, but I for one think that was done about 30 comments ago and now it is just taking energy away from our community, our health, and the women who most need us to stand up for both right now.
June 26th, 2009 at 3:47 am #
oops. FF I completely missed your last comment:
“I’m not convinced that trans women should be the ones to hold NOWHC/Incite! accountable, or that public transparency online in cis women’s spaces will achieve accountability. My point was that the process itself needs to change in order to achieve accountability to trans women and provide for their needs.”
agreed!!! (Altho I would like to see public accountability online in all women’s spaces cis and trans not just one or the other)
June 26th, 2009 at 4:59 am #
No one called me in. I don’t need to be called in. Matter of fact I sometimes need to be called off, for how hard it is for me to control my temper when I see horseshit like this. And it’s outrageous for you or anyone else, whilst in the middle of participating in Voz’s dishonest, bullying, bullshit-filled CALL-IN OF EVERYBODY ELSE TO FUCKING ATTACK BFP, to insinuate that BFP called anybody in. The hypocrisy is seriously beyond words here.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:06 am #
firefly writes:
Is it enough to get information about the policy, or should the policy itself and the process for making it also be changed?
Instead, if Incite! has given trans women reasons to distrust them (and the NOWHC policy is a pretty huge one), shouldn’t cis women already involved in Incite! do something about that (in a way that centres trans women and is accountable to them)? Shouldn’t cis women be doing more than making yet another space for cis women to talk about trans women on cis women’s terms? Is it enough to get information about the policy, or should the policy itself and the process for making it also be changed?
To me at least it seems like both steps are important, that is, getting information and then changing the policy and process. If a WOC org puts out a policy that makes us go ‘what the fuck’–by, for instance, excluding an entire group of WOC, here, namely TWOC–then it sort of makes sense to say, okay something is broken here and we need to look at it and figure out where things are breaking down.
Part of the problem of course is that none of this can happen fast enough for the people not getting health care in the meantime, and that’s a serious problem. The other part of the problem though is that without knowing where the process is breaking down we can’t really know how to fix it. Is the exclusion happening because of lack of resources, not prioritizing the procurement of those resources, legal issues, exclusion of trans people in decision-making processes, blatantly transphobic views on the part of decision makers? What needs to change or happen in order to get health care for TWOC? Without INCITE making their thought process transparent we really don’t know. And what is more, the people affected don’t know.
What I saw BFP doing in the OP, the way I read it, was to ask for transparency that would indeed make the org accountable to trans women. Whether this would center trans women in the way FF is asking definitely needs to be looked at, as you’re right, FF, the conversation is happening in a cis space and that’s something that needs to be addressed. Though transparency would open the decisionmaking process up to more trans women, it would also open it up to more cis women as well, and there’s no guarantee that trans women won’t just be shut out of the conversation.
So how do we keep that from happening? FF’s, your suggestion is for BFP or other cis women involved with INCITE to do something to change the policy in a way that centers and is accountable to trans women. I sort of see the OP as BFP’s first step toward doing that, though maybe in a way that is flawed if it includes more trans women without centering them. But if BFP were to just change the policies on her own without opening the conversation up, what would that do? How should she then begin to include and center trans women in the decision making policy if not by demanding that they have access to all the same information she does?
If BFP were simply asking for transparency under the assumption that whatever is revealed will support and reinforce the policy, that we should trust that INCITE has a legitimate, unresolvable reason for this policy if only we could know it, then yeah that would be a problem. But, and I don’t mean to speak for BFP, but it doesn’t sound like that’s entirely the case. What I saw BFP doing in the OP was taking the first step to figure out whether or how the policy can be changed. It doesn’t mean there aren’t any problems with how that step happened, but now the question is simply, where do we go from here? If this isn’t the right step then what is, what needs to change and how can we change it?
June 26th, 2009 at 7:24 am #
Hey Joan, stop twisting my words and making everything about you. This line you’re taking of policing woc on behalf of other woc is so fucked up (not to mention calling a trans woman asking for help a “call-in” to “attack” — well done using violent imagery about a trans woc) that I’m not even going to start. Divide-and-conquer is an ugly game.
anonymous, I apologise for insinuating that you are a cis person.
But to my mind, it doesn’t follow that because no individual can speak for a community, that it’s then okay to silence one individual from that community so long as you’re speaking to other people from that community. I understand that in solidarity/ally work it’s sometimes necessary to follow one call over others, and I’ve taken flak from a lot of people for doing that myself, but there was a long process (years) that led up to it. In this case it just looks like tokenism and shutting down of a particularly vocal trans woman for no reason other than not wanting to deal with criticism.
I appreciate the need to make sure that people are safe and not threatened with violence. Like I said, I’m not aware of Voz having made threats other than that one time, which she apologised for repeatedly. Even so, why should that be a gagging offence? Especially when that gag is backed up by comments from others which support some pretty transphobic tone-policing…
But all this has already been said.
Also, Emily has made a further comment about her wishes.
I am tired of this back and forth about both BFP and Voz.
Me too. That isn’t what I’ve been speaking to at all. The issue I’ve been speaking to is that of conversation about trans women in cis women’s space, and the nature of the conversations needed to organise service provision for marginalised women, which is all I’m really qualified to talk about.
I’m really sorry to hear about the history of (denial of) service provision to trans women in NOLA. Being, like, a couple of oceans away, this isn’t something I’m all that familiar with but the potted history you’ve given suggests some fairly tumultuous goings-on in the community health care sector in New Orleans over the past 5 years. I wonder what it will take for your questions to not only get answered, but for changes in the delivery of health care to actually happen? (And that’s a genuinely open-ended question. As I see it, that’s the point of this entire discussion.)
June 26th, 2009 at 7:24 am #
I know bfp well enough that when she says something cryptic, she isn’t playing head games or trying to avoid responsibility, it’s because she has these competing interests. Haven’t we all had times when we have wanted the truth to come out, but we have a responsibility and loyalty to someone or several someones who would be vulnerable if we spoke out? If you don’t know bfp well, or just don’t like her, you might ascribe the worst motives and reasons for the things she does and says. I’ve known her since Fall 06, nearly 3 years. I’ll trust that she is doing what she thinks is best and is trying her damnedest to do the right thing.
Donna–and Aaminah and Jenny and Joan–I understand this, and agree with what you’re saying about time and caution. And I do understand that this is a delicate situation, and I don’t want to say anything that would up the heat-light ratio in a way that would endanger care for Em and other trans women in her situation.
But in general, I think this is kind of beside the point. “I know this blogger, and I trust and respect her,” isn’t something that should hold any water with strangers. I like and respect BFP a lot, and I do trust her, because I know her myself. No one else should feel obligated to subject the judgments of their interlocutor’s friends for their own, particularly when they read -phobia/-sexism into their interlocutor’s comments, and particularly when their subjectivity is disrespected. We’ve also all had times when people seemed cryptic and meant listen this discussion is over because go away.
And Joan? Look, Voz in this argument isn’t just herself; she’s managing another space for the discussion, and a lot of women are participating there and not here. Whatever the circumstances of her involvement, she can’t be ignored without ignoring them. I don’t think her anger is a distraction, but I do think the offense can become one.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:25 am #
i actually didn’t think this could get any more ridiculous… but to say BFP is “calling in” people to come support her… wow, that is just an amazing amount of arrogance. like joan, no one “called me in” or asked for me to join in. the reason i am not even commenting on the original matter is because as a cis woman i am trying very hard to sit back and listen, to not speak about something that i clearly don’t know enough about. that said, i’m not entirely ignorant of the subject either and i am disgusted at the way this whole conversation has been twisted and turned into a personal attack on BFP, as well as what i see here being nonsensical and hypocritical… but hey, i’m a cis-woman, so it’s not my place to try to make sense out of it but just accept it for what it is, okay. so, i tried to stay out of it, to just try to listen and learn. excuse me for expressing my love and friendship towards a woman i have known online for three years and who has been instrumental in helping me work through my traumas and remain semi-sane, who has been instrumental and showing me so many things, in pushing me to learn more about these matters too. she didn’t call me in. she doesn’t have to. friends stand beside each other thru difficulties, not just the rose throwing. you can disagree with her without attacking her, and whether i agree with her or not isn’t the point in relation to whether or not i’m going to support her as a friend.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:30 am #
piny, get over it. i never said anyone else has to trust BFP. i never said you have to agree. the fact that my expressing – directly to BFP – that i love her is something you want to twist, censor and say isn’t relevent is just arrogance on your part. i said, i’m not even speaking on THIS SUBJECT. i’m just, as a friend/sister/compa letting BFP know, the only way i currently can because she is not “available” otherwise and SHOULD be allowed to concentrate on her writing retreat, that i am thinking of her. stop trying to put words in my mouth or assume that i am up to some kind plot to undermine anyone else.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:49 am #
Plot? Undermine? Is that a curare-tipped dagger in your bodice, or are you just happy to see me?
I didn’t say you were involved in a plot to undermine somebody else, because I haven’t confused this thread with The Duchess of Malfi.
I said that your deep affection and respect for BFP are not and should not be relevant to trans women who evaluate her words here. Donna brought up BFP’s general goodness and wisdom in reference to those complaints, and so did Jenny. BFP doesn’t have trust from people who don’t know her, and she can’t really expect it. Trans women are already being labelled hostile and unreasonable in this discussion, but they don’t have any reason to give anyone the benefit of the doubt.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:04 am #
BFP, this discussion is taking place on two threads. It involves dozens of people on each for want of a better word side. It’s starting to bring up a lot of other individual relationships and past discussions. People are commenting to each other, not just to you. You’re right that this shouldn’t just be about you, and it isn’t.
June 26th, 2009 at 10:00 am #
Piny, I agree with you here 100%:
“your deep affection and respect for BFP are not and should not be relevant to trans women who evaluate her words here”
and it’s why you haven’t heard me make any such argument, and will not. I don’t think Aaminah and Donna are blind-followers-of-BFP for expressing their feelings about this, I’m just saying that we are making different points.
June 26th, 2009 at 10:56 am #
I had comments written and I deleted them. I fell into a trap of defending previously and I’m starting to do it again and I’m going to stop myself before I get too revved up.
if anybody saw them, that’s why i erased them
thank you.
June 26th, 2009 at 11:13 am #
You’re right. This:
BFP doesn’t have trust from people who don’t know her, and she can’t really expect it.
was ambiguous. But I wasn’t responding to you. I was responding to a couple of other commenters. I know you’re feeling beleaguered right now, and I understand why, but I didn’t say that you expected people to blindly trust you.
I also didn’t say that you called anyone hostile.
I–and again, I’m not just talking to you–don’t care about Voz. I know that your decision to not-approve her comments does keep coming up in this thread; I respect it, and I know that you feel the need to underline it.
I don’t like her, and don’t like her tactics, and don’t really want to interact with her either, but she and the avoidance and calling-out thereof are taking up a lot more space in the conversation than seems necessary. If Voz is an asshole, if she really is irrational and unfair and abusive, why does anyone care what she says on her livejournal?
June 26th, 2009 at 11:15 am #
Give a girl time to catch up.
That’s fine. I don’t want to piss you off for no good reason. You can edit my comment if you want.
June 26th, 2009 at 11:28 am #
no piny, i’ll leave it, but just so people have context–i said some stuff that piny is responding to–and i deleted that stuff for the reason stated in previous comment. I will stay out of the convo from now on.
June 26th, 2009 at 11:56 am #
ok, as usual, i lied. I am going to say something, but only because it’s unrelated to other dicussions going on, and it’s making me patently uncomfortable, especially since everybody here that I can tell of is some how connected to anti-abuse type movements.
This whole idea: well, i didn’t *see* the abuse, and i wasn’t *aware* of the abuse, so therefor it’s not really happening??? Really? That is being said uncritically and accepted by a bunch of people connected to the anti-violence movement? Really? I am not speaking cryptically here, or referencing anything at all, or speaking about any situation anywhere. I am simply challenging the idea that abuse is public and open and something that everybody is aware of or it just must not exist! because what happens in the public sphere is ALWAYS representative of what is happening in the private sphere, right?
June 26th, 2009 at 11:56 am #
and now back to school.
have a good day everybody.
June 26th, 2009 at 12:02 pm #
does anyone know why trans women are being excluded from NOLA?
June 26th, 2009 at 1:50 pm #
Piny, I know. I said this part too, “If you don’t know bfp well, or just don’t like her, you might ascribe the worst motives and reasons for the things she does and says.” I do know that people who don’t know her have no reason to trust her or believe her. They can believe anything they want to believe and might just think she is a transphobic asshole and that’s just the way it is. I was talking to the people who do know bfp, and who are saying things like, I don’t get it, this isn’t like bfp. I’m telling them, yeah, it’s not like her and that’s because she’s stuck between a rock and a hard place. I’m also letting her know that I witnessed some of the shit she is NOT talking about and so I understand why her hands are tied. I know she is trying to do right by so many different people and because her hands are tied everything looks from the outside like she is just screwing up when she is not. Anyway, sometimes people can’t be transparent, and it’s not because they have anything to hide, it’s because it’s not their story to tell.
June 26th, 2009 at 2:16 pm #
omphaloskeptic, I assume you mean NOWHC? I don’t think there has been an answer yet but people are working on finding out what the full policy is, why, and how to get all services available for trans women.
It’s really confusing, because I’m not sure if people noticed that the exclusionary language is on the sexual health page and not on the health services front page, or any of the other pages. So it’s possible that many health services might already be available for trans women, but that they might be talking about only a few specialized sexual/reproductive needs.
They have been contacted but I haven’t heard any answers yet. I do know that they are very small run by like only 4 WOC, and of course they still have patients and clients to take care of, no fancy public relations department, so I think it might take them at least a few days to answer the emails, faxes, and phone calls they have gotten. Well, I guess unless they have been inundated in protest, that might take much longer with so few people to handle it all and their other duties.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:38 am #
Whoa, I missed all of this. That’s what I get for only peeking into the blogosphere occasionally and also for not reading bfp or queen emily enough when I do. Um, for what it’s worth? I’m a trans woman of color. I have relied on INCITE! resources for years — for organizing, for thinking about resiting violence, for supporting abuse survivors and dealing with ongoing abuse in my community. For me, personally, they are up there in the top organizations in the world that I value and that have facilitated my existence. And remember, again, that INCITE! is not a centralized top-down organization, I don’t know much or anything about NOLA INCITE!.
But still, when I saw their policy after following a link from Queen Emily, I was floored. INCITE!, in my experience, has pretty good trans politics even as they struggle with how some participants and allied organizations are in a different place along the process of understanding trans issues. So I was like, HOLY WHAT?! Women and trans and genderqueer but oh wait not YOU. And my reaction was like what (I think? post is deleted) bfp’s was — there must be some mistake. This needs to get clarified. This isn’t like INCITE!, I’m gonna call someone who knows someone and find out what the heck is going on!
But yeah — I also know I can’t expect anyone else to know or trust INCITE! or give INCITE! the benefit of the doubt. I can speak what I understand about them, and maybe people trust my opinion to some extent — but that’s about it. People gotta find out for themselves. I understand really viscerally why this is so totally upsetting, that QE got turned away at the front door (the website) like that.
Um ok, I haven’t been able to read all the comments yet and I don’t want to just barge into an ongoing discussion like a relative stranger, so I’ll keep it to that. I will say that I really agree that since INCITE! is a WOC organization, this should be about the intersection of racism & transphobia, and center the needs of trans woc, especially in NOLA for obvious reasons. I don’t speak for all trans woc, and I hope that we can speak for ourselves and allies can hang back and support.
(Oh one other thing — this was a little confusing to read and understand because the original post was gone. I really admire what bfp said about “I feel like in the future, people can point to this conversation and say, Look–THIS IS HOW DEFENSIVE POSTURING HAPPENS.” But like, I couldn’t read the beginning of the conversation! Had to piece it together, muddled.) thanks
June 27th, 2009 at 9:42 am #
if i had a close friend who was fucking up in public, i wouldn’t post “[it's okay,] i heart you!” there. it’s just flaunting the fact that you are closing ranks with someone else in your oppressor class.
while bfp’s writing has been formational for me in the past few years as a young woman interested in social justice issues, no one is infallible. we all have obligations to call people out if they are contributing to something harmful, even if they are (especially if they are) our closest friends. and people should be prioritized over institutions. it makes me very uneasy to see people closing ranks this way.
June 27th, 2009 at 12:30 pm #
…
I know you can’t answer, so this feels extra mean, but:
If you were on the other side of this, as you have been, is this what you’d want to hear? Or would you just be kind of bored at this point?
June 27th, 2009 at 12:34 pm #
gotcha. deleted.
June 27th, 2009 at 1:29 pm #
NOWHC’s website is down, fyi.
June 27th, 2009 at 1:38 pm #
ok, my logic at keeping this thread open was because I didn’t want people to feel like they didn’t have the space to say to me, You fucked up.
I wanted to be responsible to those voices. So after time I responded to people saying i fucked things up. because I had thought things through. And then Piny responded and then I realized that even though I was responding to directly to stuff on this thread which included people saying they hope that I respond to where I was wrong, etc–me responding at all was still being distracting and stupid. and then I didn’t realize that Holly had posted something at feministe and that the conversation at voz’s continues–I was so caught up in myself and thinking through what I had done wrong and what I think was wrong on this thread–I didn’t even realize that there were two knew posts on my own blog.
SO, I decided you know what? Piny is right. Even though I was trying to show people my thought process as it stands right now and I was trying to show I was committed to continuing to working through my thought process and continuing to unpack things–really, who the hell cares. It’s just doing what I have already done, continuing to take away from the more important point and writing my voice all over the entire discussion.
As such, I am closing this thread. And in doing so, I am redirecting people who want to be a part of a conversation that is vastly more important than How BFP Thought Process Works, they can go to these places.
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/women-and-trans-health-care-really-ought-to-mean-it/
http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/nowhc-more-discussion/
http://www.raveneye.org/?p=750
http://voz-latina.livejournal.com/13030.html
And if there are any other ignorant slobs like myself on any of the other threads that are being opened right now, please, head them over here and tell them not to be me. And for people who are confused, like how HOlly was, as to what all started this to begin with–see raven’s eye.
Now, threads closed.
Thanks.
June 27th, 2009 at 1:46 pm #
sigh, always with the one last comment!!! GG–yeah, I saw that–